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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

Old 8th Feb 2020, 14:06
  #521 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JimEli View Post
"...proficiency training in inadvertent entry into instrument meteorological conditions (IIMC) and unusual attitude recovery, was conducted in a helicopter..."
That's a reference to the CFR 135.293 (c) VFR currency requirements, though the regulation calls for "competency".

I wonder which type of helicopter the training was on, though. Island Express had 3 S76 and 3 AS-350. Eurosafety's US training center is in Camarillo, and they offer "advanced recurrent" training for the AS-350 only (full list of types at https://www.eurosafety.us/recurrent-airframe-training ).
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Old 8th Feb 2020, 14:16
  #522 (permalink)  
 
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How long do you retain your proficiency following satisfactorily completing such training and Check Ride?

There is "currency" and there is "proficiency"....one is legal, theoretical, and technical...the other is real.

Autopilots do a very good job of flying if they are serviceable and set up for immediate use....and used.


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Old 8th Feb 2020, 15:12
  #523 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
That's a reference to the CFR 135.293 (c) VFR currency requirements, though the regulation calls for "competency".

I wonder which type of helicopter the training was on, though. Island Express had 3 S76 and 3 AS-350. Eurosafety's US training center is in Camarillo, and they offer "advanced recurrent" training for the AS-350 only (full list of types at https://www.eurosafety.us/recurrent-airframe-training ).
I believe the 293 check needs to be accomplished in aircraft class type (I could be wrong).

Last edited by JimEli; 8th Feb 2020 at 15:28.
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Old 8th Feb 2020, 16:26
  #524 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JimEli View Post
I believe the 293 check needs to be accomplished in aircraft class type (I could be wrong).
CFR 135.293: "(b) No certificate holder may use a pilot, nor may any person serve as a pilot, in any aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 12th calendar month before that service, that pilot has passed a competency check given by the Administrator or an authorized check pilot in that class of aircraft, if single-engine airplane other than turbojet, or that type of aircraft, if helicopter, multiengine airplane, or turbojet airplane, to determine the pilot's competence in practical skills and techniques in that aircraft or class of aircraft."

There are two possibilities I can think of:
1) The May 2019 training was on an Island Express S76,
2) The May 2019 training was on an AS-350, and the pilot also had a checkride on a S76 earlier that year.

The NTSB wording is ambiguous, and I don't know which is more likely.
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Old 8th Feb 2020, 23:35
  #525 (permalink)  
 
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Possibility number one is correct.
Two pilots from Island express were trained and checked by Eurosafety in Island Exspress company Sikorsky S 76. Pictures online of a flight to Catalina island Two Harbors.
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Old 9th Feb 2020, 00:23
  #526 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vortex-generators View Post
Possibility number one is correct.
Two pilots from Island express were trained and checked by Eurosafety in Island Exspress company Sikorsky S 76. Pictures online of a flight to Catalina island Two Harbors.
Ok, thank you!
I haven't seen these pictures yet.
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Old 9th Feb 2020, 09:26
  #527 (permalink)  
 
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Looking at their facebook feed, Eurosafety seem to regularly do S76 recurrent.




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Old 9th Feb 2020, 11:18
  #528 (permalink)  
 
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Is it at all unusual for a passenger to sit in a pilot's seat on these kinds of flights?
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Old 9th Feb 2020, 11:31
  #529 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by medod View Post
Is it at all unusual for a passenger to sit in a pilot's seat on these kinds of flights?
No, it is not unusual.
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Old 9th Feb 2020, 16:38
  #530 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Looking at their facebook feed, Eurosafety seem to regularly do S76 recurrent.



https://m.facebook.com/1773790923069...pe=3&source=54
This picture is very interesting... even tough it is not from the accident flight...

Because I had my ”wake up call” with MauiJim sunglasses last summer when flying with R44 and looked at a Garmin display (combined ADI&HSI)... and noticed that from certain angles the display turned totally black! 😳 In other words the ADI was not readible at all! Very scary thoughts crossed my mind then... even if I was flying in VMC.😳🤔

And after that I realised for sure the general guidance: Polarized lenses are not recommended for use in the aviation environment. While useful for blocking reflected light from horizontal surfaces such as water or snow, polarization can reduce or eliminate the visibility of instruments that incorporate anti glare filters.

https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pi...sunglasses.pdf

I hope that this was not a factor in this tragic accident!

Last edited by Search&Rescue; 10th Feb 2020 at 05:41.
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Old 9th Feb 2020, 17:42
  #531 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Search&Rescue View Post
This picture is very interesting... even tough it is not from the accident flight...

Because I had my ”wake up call” with MauiJim sunglasses last summer when flying with R44 and looked at a Garmin display (combined ADI&HSI)... and noticed that from certain angles the display turned totally black! In other words the ADI was not readible at all! Very scary thoughts was crossing my mind even if I was flying in VMC.😳

And after that I realised for sure the general guidance: Polarized lenses are not recommended for use in the aviation environment. While useful for blocking reflected light from horizontal surfaces such as water or snow, polarization can reduce or eliminate the visibility of instruments that incorporate anti- glare filters.

https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pi...sunglasses.pdf

I hope that this was not a factor in this tragic accident!

I used polarized brown lenses for thirty-some odd years. Yes, they can be a problem with some displays, lcd types especially; and windshields, windows with heat elements laminated; and 'stress figures' where lexan, plexiglass are bent in installation. Never had an issue with led, oleds or more modern displays. Reflected glare is a huge issue in some environments, even where it's not obvious. Unless the windscreen in whatever I was flying that day presented huge issues (one aircraft in all those years) polarized brown every time.

My experience was that I got about an extra mile vis when operating in 2-3 mile visibility conditions, especially with precip. I'm gonna guess I've got 800, 1000 hours running in 2-3 mile vis and 3-500 foot ceilings over the decades. Not arguing anything in the FAA circular, in my mind the benefit outweighed the risk, especially in restricted vis where reflected flashes were less an issue and in a cockpit absent the other issues mentioned. All things considered, I would have been wearing mine up that canyon...
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Old 9th Feb 2020, 21:15
  #532 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neville_nobody View Post
What is the point of being a high net worth individual owning a multi million dollar twin turbine helicopter to then sign up with a VFR only operator?
Non aviation savvy people have no idea what they are and aren’t signing up for. All they see is a fancy looking helicopter and have no idea of the helicopter, company or pilot’s capability/approvals.

Most clients don’t know what they don’t know, and the expectation is that the industry should protect them but sadly that’s not always the case.

Most high nett worth clients/owners have no problems paying for higher/better capabilities and when they have it explained to them what they’re getting. But if they don’t know what questions to ask, then they just accept status quo or believe what the snake oil salesmen are selling them.
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Old 9th Feb 2020, 23:26
  #533 (permalink)  
 
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Hello. I'm a new time poster with no flight experience, so please be gentle. I'm here to ask a question of the experts. Are there any disciplinarily actions a pilot faces for inadvertent VFR flight into IMC? If so, do such potentially "punitive" actions disincentivize some pilots from taking actions such as declaring an emergency or "confessing" their predicament to ATC?
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 00:07
  #534 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by medod View Post
Is it at all unusual for a passenger to sit in a pilot's seat on these kinds of flights?
I didn't read that anywhere, was there a passenger in the left seat on this flight?
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 05:56
  #535 (permalink)  
 
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Devil 49 - the AW139 RFM specifically prohibits the use of polarised sunglasses in the cockpit because of the blanking effect they have on the MFDs/PFDs so it is clearly aircraft and display specific. I don't know what the S76 displays are like or if there are similar limitations.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 06:54
  #536 (permalink)  
 
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Just another Buddy Holly accident that happened 61 years ago.
All young and old pilots, this is a modern day version of an old accident. Wisdom from an old bold pilot.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 07:12
  #537 (permalink)  
 
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Better to Learn from the other guys mistakes than your own

RE: The FAA, You are probably 100% correct. What I find interesting is that the pilot (except for the last few seconds of flight) seemed to have every intention, with apparent confidence, of completing the flight to a landing spot (otherwise why request and inititate a climb to 4000' - plenty of opportunities to abort the mission). Looking at the NTSB photos, my guess, the manuever attempted was a deliberate one to climb through a 'hole' (legal- who knows). The key questions are; 1) why the decision in the first place and 2) what caused the pilot to abrubtly 'deviate' from his objective just, seemingly, a few feet & seconds from the ridge top and from on top conditions and to initiate a sequence of events that resulted in loss of aircraft control. IMO, a major distraction occured, e.g. 1) an inflight emergency; 2) an unwanted input from the co-pilot/passenger, or 3) the sudden & unexpected awareness of the proximity of terrain. Every new generation of pilots seems needs to learn the difference betwen 'thinking I can do it' as opposed to 'knowing that I can do it'.
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
(My bolding of the text)

I shall say it is my opinion Mr. Sumwalt is talking out his hind end.

They will come up with a "Probable Cause", they shall make some recomendations, and that will be the end of it.

They are not able to force any change that shall prevent this from happening again.....that is for sure because helicopter pilots have an astounding ability to repeat history and the FAA has a unique talent at ignoring NTSB Recommendations.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 07:17
  #538 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
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Originally Posted by Alex Permit View Post
Hello. I'm a new time poster with no flight experience, so please be gentle. I'm here to ask a question of the experts. Are there any disciplinarily actions a pilot faces for inadvertent VFR flight into IMC? If so, do such potentially "punitive" actions disincentivize some pilots from taking actions such as declaring an emergency or "confessing" their predicament to ATC?
No. There is no reprimand.
shows the ATC conversation with a VFR pilot who called ATC when IMC, and he was talked back into VMC and safely made it to the ground. He later contacted the controllers to thank them (and apologise I believe?), which brings me to my next point: although there is no regulatory punishment for declaring a MAYDAY and requesting priority handling in such a situation, many accident pilots do not call until it is too late.

This is just my opinion but I believe when in the cockpit, pilots either do not accept the severity and danger of the situation until it's too late, and/or there is a subconscious modesty / shyness to make a distress call as it seems like such a drastic thing to do and pilots don't want to be a burden to ATC. Many pilots may go their whole career without every broadcasting a real Mayday call over the radio so it can be hard to finally accept you've pushed it too far and make the distress call.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 07:19
  #539 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Glacier pilot View Post
RE: The FAA, You are probably 100% correct. What I find interesting is that the pilot (except for the last few seconds of flight) seemed to have every intention, with apparent confidence, of completing the flight to a landing spot (otherwise why request and inititate a climb to 4000' - plenty of opportunities to abort the mission). Looking at the NTSB photos, my guess, the manuever attempted was a deliberate one to climb through a 'hole' (legal- who knows). The key questions are; 1) why the decision in the first place and 2) what caused the pilot to abrubtly 'deviate' from his objective just, seemingly, a few feet & seconds from the ridge top and from on top conditions and to initiate a sequence of events that resulted in loss of aircraft control. IMO, a major distraction occured, e.g. 1) an inflight emergency; 2) an unwanted input from the co-pilot/passenger, or 3) the sudden & unexpected awareness of the proximity of terrain. Every new generation of pilots seems needs to learn the difference betwen 'thinking I can do it' as opposed to 'knowing that I can do it'.

I like your passion, and I agree that so much may have happened BUT the decision was made before the aircraft left the ground.
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Old 10th Feb 2020, 09:56
  #540 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vortex-generators View Post
I didn't read that anywhere, was there a passenger in the left seat on this flight?
There's no evidence that there was a passenger in a pilot seat. The helicopter's passenger compartment was able to carry 8 passengers (two benches that could fit 4 each). So most likely, all 8 passengers were in the back.
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