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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

Old 3rd Feb 2020, 20:50
  #461 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wiedehopf View Post
I'm perfectly aware and i don't think i drew any conclusions.
My apologies if my post led you to believe that I felt that you had; was not the intended message. (As much for the general reading public as anything else).
There is no CVR or FDR for that particular helicopter if i'm not mistaken.
Such was reported early on.
I'm also well aware that this could turn out to be a mechanical malfunction or some other issue. Maybe even the NTSB will have a hard time reporting with certainty what caused this crash.
They certainly have their work cut out for them, given the lack of FDR data to point to those crucial details as the left turn commenced, and then what followed up to the point of impact. By crucial details I refer to "what going on with the machine" (if anything was amiss) and "what's going on in the cockpit?" . .
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 20:57
  #462 (permalink)  
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There has been a lot of speculation based upon individuals interpretations of FR24, ADS-B, door-bell videos and expert ear analysts such that moderators have had their work cut out sorting the wheat from the chaff.

A number of experienced helicopter pilots have hinted that this is best left to the NTSB. Since this thread is trawled by the media and others looking for, and getting, any misdirection available there will be a slash and burn policy on any more posts of this nature.

Stick to what you actually know, not what you think you know.
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 21:38
  #463 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Senior Pilot View Post
There has been a lot of speculation based upon individuals interpretations of FR24, ADS-B, door-bell videos and expert ear analysts such that moderators have had their work cut out sorting the wheat from the chaff.

A number of experienced helicopter pilots have hinted that this is best left to the NTSB. Since this thread is trawled by the media and others looking for, and getting, any misdirection available there will be a slash and burn policy on any more posts of this nature.

Stick to what you actually know, not what you think you know.
Is this why my replies aren't showing up? I try not to engage in empty speculation. I've been a Feeder for 6 years ( using FR24 sponsored hardware) and do know something about ADS-B. I'm familiar with its weak points and strong points. Its understandable that the Rotor Pilots who have been here for years resent the onslaught of non-rotor pilots over the last week. Some of us non-pilots try to post info that has value. But it is what it is. Ifyou don't want me posting here, let me know. I'll quit typing replies and comments that end up in the round file. Thanks in advance for your consideration...
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 23:28
  #464 (permalink)  
 
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Totally support the mods on this one. Whilst I agree that PPRuNe is a rumour network, there simply has to be an element of experienced professional helicopter pilot input. Recent posts have not followed that discipline.


TF
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Old 3rd Feb 2020, 23:34
  #465 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tigerfish View Post
Totally support the mods on this one. Whilst I agree that PPRuNe is a rumour network, there simply has to be an element of experienced professional helicopter pilot input. Recent posts have not followed that discipline.


TF
Speaking of experienced professional helicopter pilot input, this guy makes some very relevant comments. scroll to around 20 minute mark

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Old 4th Feb 2020, 00:04
  #466 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 377 Pete View Post
Is this why my replies aren't showing up? I try not to engage in empty speculation. I've been a Feeder for 6 years ( using FR24 sponsored hardware) and do know something about ADS-B. I'm familiar with its weak points and strong points. Its understandable that the Rotor Pilots who have been here for years resent the onslaught of non-rotor pilots over the last week. Some of us non-pilots try to post info that has value. But it is what it is. Ifyou don't want me posting here, let me know. I'll quit typing replies and comments that end up in the round file. Thanks in advance for your consideration...
We have had no way of knowing your expertise, or lack of, until this response of yours.

A recent poster from the USA contributing in the C-130 Australian crash thread was adamant that he is/was an ADS-B expert and derailed the thread comprehensively with his ‘proof’ that the wings folded whilst at a significant altitude, despite advice to the contrary. That sort of problem cannot help but influence our moderation of new signups who appear within these high profile threads.

FWIW he also claimed your sort of experience; but please continue to contribute on the understanding that not everything will make it onto the thread.

And to those having issues against this moderation, you are welcome to your opinions. Just don’t expect them to remain on view in this thread.
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 05:24
  #467 (permalink)  
 
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I'd like to thank everyone who answered my questions about the engine noise on the doorbell video. My takeaway of the answers is that there is no clear sign of a malfunction, and while some people had different ideas of various symptoms that might be audible, there was never any other pilot who would back that up, which to me feels that it isn't indicated clearly enough in the recording to be relied upon.

I have to admit that I haven't paid any attention to the news media, and what any witnesses they found reported on what the machine sounds like, mostly because the average person doesn't even know what it's supposed to sound like. But here, we had an opportunity to have a group of people listen to that sound who do know, and I now feel fairly certain that there isn't anything in there that could be heard (and especially not by any witness who would have only heard it once, and who would not have had the prescience to know a crash was imminent). If there was, several pilots would have noticed it.

To be extra clear, there still could have been some sort of failure aboard the aircraft; all I'm saying is that we can't decide that from the audio. The NTSB is investigating.

(An analysis I thought I could do is to quantify the Doppler effect, i.e. the reduction in pitch of the audible noise (not of the aircraft! this is about sound frequencies, not attitude) as the helicopter passes the recording location that result from the change of the helicopter moving towards the microphone and then away from it; since n5296s found out where the camera is, this could corroborate the speed and flight path of the helicopter with a little applied geometry and physics. But it seems like a lot of effort for very little gain; I'm certain the NTSB has access to experts who have experience with this, and who can throw more advanced methods at this data, so at this point I'm just going to wait for their preliminary report.)

Last edited by Musician; 4th Feb 2020 at 06:19. Reason: to be extra clear, ...
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 06:22
  #468 (permalink)  
 
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Speaking of experienced professional helicopter pilot input, this guy makes some very relevant comments. scroll to around 20 minute mark
he does make some very valid points, especially about instrument ratings but at about 17 minutes he states that getting IMC with low speed, (below 20 to 30 kts) is a situation nobody could get out of - that is demonstrably untrue, you just have to train to do it.
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 06:23
  #469 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
It has already been acknowledged that the ADSB data may well be unreliable and the doorbell audio sounds like industry insider says- just a helicopter passing overhead in the cruise.

All the talk of rates of descent and angles of bank is pure conjecture and not really helpful to anyone.

It seems to me that we are far more likely to be talking CFIT than LOC - but we still don't know why.
It is always a pleasure to read your posts and professional comments Crab... the difference between CFIT and LOC might sometimes be marginal... but if the helicopter was inverted during impact, I would rather consider this sad accident as a LOC.

Last edited by Search&Rescue; 4th Feb 2020 at 07:54.
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 06:45
  #470 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Search&Rescue View Post
It is always a pleasure to read your posts and professional comments Crab... the difference between CFIT and LOC might sometimes be marginal,,, but if the helicopter was inverted during impact, I would rather consider this sad accident as a LOC.
Where do you get the idea that it was inverted?
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 06:50
  #471 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
I'd like to thank everyone who answered my questions about the engine noise on the doorbell video. My takeaway of the answers is that there is no clear sign of a malfunction, and while some people had different ideas of various symptoms that might be audible, there was never any other pilot who would back that up, which to me feels that it isn't indicated clearly enough in the recording to be relied upon.

I have to admit that I haven't paid any attention to the news media, and what any witnesses they found reported on what the machine sounds like, mostly because the average person doesn't even know what it's supposed to sound like. But here, we had an opportunity to have a group of people listen to that sound who do know, and I now feel fairly certain that there isn't anything in there that could be heard (and especially not by any witness who would have only heard it once, and who would not have had the prescience to know a crash was imminent). If there was, several pilots would have noticed it.

To be extra clear, there still could have been some sort of failure aboard the aircraft; all I'm saying is that we can't decide that from the audio. The NTSB is investigating.

(An analysis I thought I could do is to quantify the Doppler effect, i.e. the reduction in pitch of the audible noise (not of the aircraft! this is about sound frequencies, not attitude) as the helicopter passes the recording location that result from the change of the helicopter moving towards the microphone and then away from it; since n5296s found out where the camera is, this could corroborate the speed and flight path of the helicopter with a little applied geometry and physics. But it seems like a lot of effort for very little gain; I'm certain the NTSB has access to experts who have experience with this, and who can throw more advanced methods at this data, so at this point I'm just going to wait for their preliminary report.)
Agreed but my comment will be that the audio does indicate relatively advanced forward speed under the supposed reduced visibility..????
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 07:20
  #472 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by heli View Post
Where do you get the idea that it was inverted?
Hi there! Of course I am not 100% sure... but look at the post #329...
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 08:44
  #473 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bravo Delta View Post
Agreed but my comment will be that the audio does indicate relatively advanced forward speed under the supposed reduced visibility..????
Id actually say from the door cam sound recording that the S76 in question wasnt moving that quickly. So, you have two differing opinions. Different people hear different things.
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 12:15
  #474 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
I'd like to thank everyone who answered my questions about the engine noise on the doorbell video...
Just to be clear, even if there was an engine problem, it doesn't require an immediate landing or cause a loss of control. There is another engine with plenty of power available to keep you humming along just fine. Even if you have an engine on fire, just let it burn until you are safely transitioned to single engine flight. There is no hurry to rush anything. When you are safely flying and assured of terrain clearance, you have two fire bottles that discharge into the engine bay. If those two bottles of fire retardant don't put out the fire, the engine bay is fire rated for 15 minutes. Gives you plenty of time to get it on the ground safely. So these reports of engine spluttering or whatever. Total bollocks. Engine problems are a total furphy in explaining an apparent loss of control.
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 12:45
  #475 (permalink)  
 
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The video with the two guys yakking about the crash needs some qualifying in my opinion.

It begins with neither one of them were first hand witnesses.

The "Helicopter Pilot" flys EMS in Northern California where there have been several fatal crashes due to IIMC/CFIT/LOC tragedies.

This crash occurred in the day light, and at this point the NTSB is just getting started with their investigation and have not reported ANY causes or indications of what actually occurred during the last few moments of the flight.

We do have some collateral data that is of some use but does not rise to actual fact or evidence at this time.

So ya'll just keep on with your speculation.

Just be careful about hanging yer hat on some of the information being presented as fact.

Thus far, Crab remains the adult in the room in my view by his injecting some very wise observations. (Yes....Crab....I have paid you a compliment!).
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 12:50
  #476 (permalink)  
 
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Crieky SAS - I'll go and have a lie down - I think we do tend to agree on most of the important stuff most of the time

I trust you are up and running on the new hip now?
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 13:30
  #477 (permalink)  
 
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Walking .... Running is no longer an option or any other high impact activity......but improving overall.

If pain makes one strong....I am about ready to start tugging on Superman's Cape.
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 13:41
  #478 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Search&Rescue View Post
Hi there! Of course I am not 100% sure... but look at the post #329...
Post 329 if fraught with problems, and purely speculation on the attitude, I would not put much credence into it. The 329 poster says the main rotor blades can be seen at the start of the impact site, but they seem to be clearly in the middle at least to me (red and white painted rotor elements). A high speed impact, during a turn in hilly terrain is going to be an extremely violent, tumbling, incident.
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 15:05
  #479 (permalink)  

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I suspect that the EMS pilot in the video above muddled the theory behind VRS and that of RBS with regard to the effect on angle of attack in VRS. He got it right but then changed his mind.
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Old 4th Feb 2020, 15:17
  #480 (permalink)  
 
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I have lurked for quite a while here, but I might have something pertinent to offer.
It seems that the pilot was in a climbing turn and that he started it in VMC before entering cloud. At that point he is likely to have looked down towards his instruments. This could well have triggered the Coriolis Illusion. This is not just disorientation and it is not the leans, but a full-blown sensation of spinning about all three axes.
This once happened to me. I was taking off from a frigate in a Wasp at night, The cloud base was forecast at 300 feet, but it was actually no more than 100. As I was turning and climbing away from the ship visually I entered cloud and immediately looked down to the instruments. I was experienced and current and I knew straight away what was happening, but it required an immense effort of will to ignore what my senses were telling me and not put in any control inputs. It probably lasted less than ten seconds, but felt like a lifetime. It really could have been a killer.

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