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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

Old 1st Feb 2020, 13:44
  #401 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Age: 51
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The most common cause of red screen that I witnessed at 76 SIM was that little red force trim button and an over eager thumb. The aircraft's attitude retention mode is very stable and hands off the controls uncoupled, it pretty much just stays where you left it. First thing you should do is probably nothing once you've gone inadvertent IMC. Once you've gone for that force trim option, you'd better be strong on your instrument skills as the 76 has quite a sensitive control input. If you had to make an abrupt pitch change to instigate an immediate climb, Set 10 degrees up with the force trim, then hands off the damn thing then pull the collective to the max and then start engaging some modes once you're high enough and out of trouble. Then call ATC and consider 7700 in the box.
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 14:22
  #402 (permalink)  
 
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In the early days, Air Log ordered S-76's with no SAS system as they sent all theirs down to Texas for installation of the Sperry Helipilot systems.

The Aircraft were delivered in West Palm Beach and were either flown to Texas for the Sperry install or put to work until that could be arranged.

Air Log, true to GOM standards, operated the "Bare Hares" VFR until they could obtain a slot at the Dealer for installation of the Sperry System.

The 76 with no SAS system is a hand full but is quite flyable.

With a Sperry System installed and operated in ATT Mode....with Force Trim ON.....using the Cyclic Trim Switch or Force Trim to reset your Datum works fine.

Sir is right in what he states.
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 14:57
  #403 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Originally Posted by FIRESYSOK View Post
A wrong turn down Las Virgenes Road instead of maintianing the 101 is a possibility. In that low weather very plausible, IMO.
Probably not.. The 101 is a wide 4 lane freeway East to West. Las Virgenes Rd crosses the freeway and is a 2 lane road with central reservation running North to South with gas stations and stores.
Originally Posted by Expecting2Fly View Post
There's a credible ear witness account that would support your theory I saw on Live Leak earlier. The witness mentions the area's "micro climate" and previous history of cloud settling in the bowl of the crash site.

If you go to LL and search "Witness Describes What He Heard Before Kobe Bryant Helicopter Crash". I can't post the link because I'm a noob.
We get marine layer all the time along that stretch of the 101. That morning it was heavy fog and had been that way since dawn. The weather did not deteriorate prior to the crash. It had been IMC for hours. Both VNY and BUR bank were IMC.
Originally Posted by helimutt View Post
A Climb into cloud and a 180 degree turn is not the norm for an IR rated pilot, no.
as for lift vectors ? Nope

your questions?
1. He was svfr and most likely caught out by going imc low level and the turn was probably his last attempt at getting back visual. Not just a case of jumping straight on instruments in that situation at that height.
2. nope
3. nope. Siggy Hoffman was a different issue not lift vector issue if I remember correctly. More a cyclic limit factor known about in the 105.
best not to speculate and wait for the report
He was not SVFR. SVFR was only to get him through VNY airspace. After that he was on his own nav and to maintain VFR. He asked for Flight Following as 99% of pilots do there regardless of weather.
Originally Posted by nomorehelosforme View Post
That’s an amazing ability to have.....
Amazing! With the surrounding hills and the traffic noise from the nearby 101 freeway....
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 15:31
  #404 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Originally Posted by Indelible Spirit View Post
“The helicopter did not have a terrain awareness and warning system -- a safety feature which provides the pilot with information about the terrain,” Homendy [of the NTSB] said. (CNN article 1/29/2020)
Not required.
Originally Posted by jimtun View Post
Apparently the Heli was flying at 130kts just below cloud before the eventful left turn , and a lot of comment suggests 130kts is a bit fast in those met. conditions .

Im thinking the Pilot felt he was running out of time to get his VIP to destination ontime , and may have been going faster than desirable , and took a chance on getting through on the 101 highway route , because of the earlier substantial holding delay south of Burbank , and subsequent routing north of Van Nuys .
Could pilot have questioned Burbank ATC a bit more about his holding delay , or the unexpected routing north of Van Nuys , rather than just accept it ? , and then maybe bought himself some time for options later ?

Heli could also have continued West on 118 towards Camarillo in maybe marginal VFR ,or climbing above the layer and then IR approach to Camarillo , or had he already decided after passing over Van Nuys to then aim for a set down somewhere near Mamba destination Thousand Lakes to give the pax an on-time arrival ?

We may never know , but hope to learn !
The 118 is at a higher elevation and most likely the Cloud base would have been lower.
Originally Posted by kenish View Post
The maximum elevation of Hwy 101 is approximately 800 MSL in the area of the crash and farther west at Conejo summit. The general terrain is rolling to moderate hills and the valley floor is at least 1/4 mile wide in most spots. There are a few narrow points along the route but no place is a "gorge" with big vertical road cuts as someone else claimed. The narrowest points in the valley are a mile to the west around Liberty Canyon, and at Conejo Summit. See post #311 for a good topo.

On the other hand Hwy 118 climbs to 1700 MSL through the Santa Susana Pass, and points on the route are much narrower and "V" shaped. Surrounding terrain along the route is steep, rugged, and rapidly rising in spots.

Possibly it was "tribal knowledge" that 101 was a better route than 118 in MVFR (seems like 118 was solid IFR anyway), and the pilot was more familiar with the 101 route.
The Conejo grade is very much a gorge. It then drops steeply into the Camarillo plain. There are major electrical power lines on concrete pylons that cross the Conejo grade about 200-300 feet above the gorge.
Originally Posted by TachyonID View Post
For what it's worth, I'm based at SBA and had a trip into LA, by car, that morning driving through only about 40 minutes before the incident. As such I drove past KCMA, through Camarillo and up the hill to T/O and past Las Virgenes on the way into the Valley on the trip to Glendale.

The weather is being described by the media as "very bad" but it's not necessarily atypical for mornings coming from the Oxnard-Camarillo plain, where marine layer is common in summer but not that unusual year around. Oxnard was still foggy at 0845 that morning... and there'd been a bad crash, in similar conditions, on the Oxnard side of the river on the previous morning.
As is common, the fog cleared on the Camarillo side and KCMA was reporting "1.5 miles, with low ceiling" at that time of day.

What WAS unusual about the trip this time is that generally, when you have foggy conditions along the SBA-Ventura coast and the low-lying river mouth of the Ventura River area was this: USUALLY you drive OUT of the fog going up the hill. Generally it clears by the CHP Weigh Station at the top of Conejo Pass. This Sunday, however, it was different... coming over the top of the pass and down toward Wendy drive into Conejo Valley I got into pea soup fog, off-and-on, which didn't really clear until I was pretty much into the Valley at Topanga.

The net is that I simply don't see how this flight could have completed in VFR or SVFR operating rules, since there WERE MULTIPLE cloud/fog layers under a low overcast. He would have had to do more than Scud-running to get to a safe arrival at KCMA. I understand that he "did this trip all the time", but fog around the pass isn't that unusual-- it was just complicated Sunday by layers that he''d have had to transit for a safe arrival. Conejo pass up to 2500' was fogged in. Those conditions had persisted for hours, so I'm completely unclear as to how he'd have filed a flight plan to do this trip given the poor VFR conditions enroute. I'm mystified by this so perhaps the helicopter pilots here can fill in the details. Because it looks like he either would have had to scrub or transit some ugly IMC to get there. It's baffling.
Curt
I live 1 mile from the location and drove by some 0 minutes before the accident. The weather was grim. Certainly not the more usual marine layer that rarely comes down to ground level. This morning it was a wet fog that shrouded the hills. Not wet through rain but wet from the thick fog. You could not see the crash site from half a mile away on the 101.
Point is, it had been foggy since dawn. VNY and BUR were both IMC.
The Part 135 operating license was VFR only.
Senseless.
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 19:42
  #405 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ST Dog View Post
It was Indelible Spirit.
Originally Posted by gums View Post
Murphy made a comment that I cannot find/recall associated with a post I made...... but I can stand to be corrected, and I fully unnerstan some folks with a small bladder and associated biological needs. Maybe someone else mentioned the "bucket" need, but I don't think it was me!

.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indelible Spirit View Post
Not to mention holding for 15 minutes flying in circles. I think most passengers would have needed a bucket!
.
Thanks ST, apologies to Gums.
That is what happens when relying a bit too much on memory.

Last edited by MurphyWasRight; 1st Feb 2020 at 19:43. Reason: fixed qoutes
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 20:03
  #406 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
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Gomrath said "Probably not.. The 101 is a wide 4 lane freeway East to West. Las Virgenes Rd crosses the freeway and is a 2 lane road with central reservation running North to South with gas stations and stores."

The Las Virgenes 101 overpass is 4 lanes Plus a center divider. I think it's plausible he mistook overpass traffic for 101 traffic in those mucky conditions. I've driven it countless times

I need 10 posts to upload an image, so 2 down 8 to go...
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 20:22
  #407 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by akaSylvia View Post
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51332546



I'm not sure I understand what they mean by this. Do commercial operators in the US require a specific license (or training?) for their instrument-rated pilots to fly in IFR conditions?
Yes, like also in most (if not all) other countries having IF capable aircraft and IF-rated pilots is not sufficient. To commercially operate under IF rules, the operator needs to be licensed for this too.

And yes, that comes with extra training requirements and additional, specific approved operating procedures per type of aerial work to be done under IFR.

Last edited by Hot and Hi; 2nd Feb 2020 at 07:06.
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 20:28
  #408 (permalink)  
 
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Here is a good starting point....then do some research about Operations Specifications (OpsSpecs) and see what role they play in how an Air Taxi Operator can carry out its operations.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/part-135

http://fsims.faa.gov/WDocs/8400.10%20Air%20Transp%20Ops%20Insp%20Handbk/Volume%203.%20AIR%20OPERATOR%20TECHNICAL%20ADMINISTRATION/Vol%203-Chap%201-Sec%206.htm
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 21:26
  #409 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 377 Pete View Post
Gomrath said "Probably not.. The 101 is a wide 4 lane freeway East to West. Las Virgenes Rd crosses the freeway and is a 2 lane road with central reservation running North to South with gas stations and stores."

The Las Virgenes 101 overpass is 4 lanes Plus a center divider. I think it's plausible he mistook overpass traffic for 101 traffic in those mucky conditions. I've driven it countless times

I need 10 posts to upload an image, so 2 down 8 to go...
With Gomrath on this, not likely. FR has altitude over 2000 at that point and the ceiling at that time was between 1000-1300 depending on who you listen to. That would be well into the soup.
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 23:25
  #410 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
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Originally Posted by JimEli View Post
I think not meeting currency requirements would fall into the not qualified category.
Legally, about all he'd have to do would have been to take the company helicopter out to log six IFR approaches twice a year, right? Or am I missing something?
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 23:27
  #411 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
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Originally Posted by harrogate View Post
This doorbel video cam audio eerily checks out with the witness description of the final moments and abrupt end. Tough listen.

https://youtu.be/guGQyqki6ik
Could anyone who is familiar with this type say whether the engine noise sounds normal? Or is that not possible to judge from that clip?
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Old 1st Feb 2020, 23:57
  #412 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Legally, about all he'd have to do would have been to take the company helicopter out to log six IFR approaches twice a year, right? Or am I missing something?
Not for part 135. And basic Part 61.57(c) currency stipulates more items.
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Old 2nd Feb 2020, 00:34
  #413 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JimEli View Post
Not for part 135. And basic Part 61.57(c) currency stipulates more items.
Well, yes, the full list is
i) Six instrument approaches.

(ii) Holding procedures and tasks.

(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigational electronic systems.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.57

If you choose an instrument approach that requires you to track a course, and then ask ATC to put you on hold for one of the approaches, you're done? If you do it at night, or under the hood?

And since every commercial pilot needs their IFR rating, it's in the interest of the company to keep it up. In fact, my information is that the accident pilot was both the company's chief pilot and a cfii, aka an instrument instructor, who could've done the hood flights with the other company pilots?

So there is incentive for the pilot to be legally IFR-rated, which was my point.
It's clear that tells us nothing about how many flight hours he had actually logged in IMC and clouds.



Last edited by Musician; 2nd Feb 2020 at 07:32. Reason: Commercial pilot's license for helis does not require IFR rating
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Old 2nd Feb 2020, 00:50
  #414 (permalink)  
 
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Only around 5% of the hours flown for most multi IFR guys are logged as actual. This is typical for pilots who have a cold winter season to deal with. So if you fly 500 hours a year, realistically on average you can expect 25 hours of instrument time. The cost and complexity of operating a dual pilot modern twin helo don't really make much sense when you consider the capabilities of the aircraft that you're just not utilizing most of the time. So skills can get rusty, both cognitive and dexterous.
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Old 2nd Feb 2020, 03:16
  #415 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Well, yes, the full list is
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/61.57

If you choose an instrument approach that requires you to track a course, and then ask ATC to put you on hold for one of the approaches, you're done? If you do it at night, or under the hood?

And since every commercial pilot needs their IFR rating, it's in the interest of the company to keep it up. In fact, my information is that the accident pilot was both the company's chief pilot and a cfii, aka an instrument instructor, who could've done the hood flights with the other company pilots?

So there is incentive for the pilot to be legally IFR-rated, which was my point.
It's clear that tells us nothing about how many flight hours he had actually logged in IMC and clouds.
Under part 135 it's different. Basically an IPC (135.297 check and AP check for SP ops) is required every 6 months.
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Old 2nd Feb 2020, 05:10
  #416 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Could anyone who is familiar with this type say whether the engine noise sounds normal? Or is that not possible to judge from that clip?
Sounds normal to me...right up until the impact noise. In any event, most of the sound signature is main and tail rotor noise.
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Old 2nd Feb 2020, 05:23
  #417 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
..If You want to describe him as being incompetent.....PROVE IT!
Competency should be easy to elucidate. Does anybody know if the operator sends their S76 pilots to Flight Safety for annual recurrent training in the sim?
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Old 2nd Feb 2020, 05:37
  #418 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
Sounds normal to me...right up until the impact noise. In any event, most of the sound signature is main and tail rotor noise.
The sound of it flying over is not consistent in terms of a normal fly-by as such. Sounds like itís stooging around at slower than normal speed and ignoring the fact that you canít hear any blade slap of it slowing down, it sounds like itís slowing up and or turning slightly for around 10 seconds before the impact. Certainly doesnít sound like a helicopter on itís side in a 5,000ft descent rate.
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Old 2nd Feb 2020, 06:08
  #419 (permalink)  
 
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Certainly doesnít sound like a helicopter on itís side in a 5,000ft descent rate
Out of curiosity, where do I go to find out what that DOES sound like? Somehow it has been absent from my life experience so far. Why would a helicopter sound different if it is descending or banking? I do agree that the sound is pretty consistent up to the last moment.


For what it's worth (thanks Google Street View) I'm pretty sure the doorbell cam is at 4304 Oak Glen St. That puts it about 400 feet off the flight path, according to the ADS-B data ( https://caltopo.com/m/P69T ). The timing is just right. If the ADS-B data is to be fully believed, they were already in a 2000+ ft/min descent and 45 degree or so bank at that point.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1381...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/place/43...4d-118.7016795
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Old 2nd Feb 2020, 06:56
  #420 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Could anyone who is familiar with this type say whether the engine noise sounds normal? Or is that not possible to judge from that clip?

It doesn't sound unusual to me. The distortion sounds like it's from a poor quality microphone rather than the aircraft.
You can hear the normal main and tail rotor noise embedded in the clip.
I'm certainly not a sound expert but have flown the 76 nothing stands out as obviously weird about the sound.
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