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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

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Kobe Bryant killed in S76 crash

Old 29th Jan 2020, 11:21
  #241 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
I was about to ask if this helicopter had a CVR/FDR (but figured I should go back a few pages to see if it was already answered).
Which sort of begs the question, why not? I would think any aircraft that is being operated "for hire" should be so equipped...
I have flown helicopters which were latterly retro-fitted with CVR/FDR but fitting them cannot directly prevent an accident per se. Obviously, a rule change could be introduced, based on the findings from CVR/FDR after an accident has taken place, but it might not have any bearing on future accidents such as this one.

However, had the aircraft been fitted with a TAWS, it might well have made a difference, if the pilot chose to act upon any terrain warning given and was able to act upon it. Having said that, the TAWS in some helicopters seems to be based around fixed wing parameters and can give spurious and distracting warnings when fitted to a helicopter going about its normal business of landing off airports (as sometimes does the one fitted to the aircraft I fly).
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 12:17
  #242 (permalink)  
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TAWS

That appears on first blush to have some merit, if the scenario is beetling about under the cloud and running into planet earth. The recent talking head former NTSB person talking about high ROD and low forward speed in the same breath as describing the accident as a high energy impact makes that somewhat clouded. TAWS can be a pain, and has it's own limitations, like finding out that the international obstacle data base is only slightly international. Just came across that last month in a foreign land. In that case, the certificated TAWS system didn't know about the obstacle, but Foreflight did. So did Garmin Pilot oddly. An ipad with blue tooth to your headset is not a bad thing, but it will drive you nuts with obstacle alerts on approaches. They are valid advisories, but can be an irritant.

In comparison to what we used to have to work with, an ipad today, (preferably with an AHRS/XM/ADSB IN) is one of the greatest safety devices ever invented. Along with seat belts. (And "HOT LIQUID" on coffee cup lids). The SA from the above mentioned programs is stunningly superior to any large transport certified aircraft system, from the A320 to the B787, give me an ipad. So much so, I run dual ipads with dual separate AHRS/ADSB IN in my jets. That talks to the A/P, and to the passengers. They cross talk. The display of traffic alone even with $300K of ADSB out 1090 & TCAS II ch 7.1, traffic display is stunning. We operate all over the world, often in places that are relatively high risk, and all up, the ipad and programs make for a better day.

Any change has potential risk, (mounting, distraction etc) but an ipad with appropriate programs in the absence of a TAWS system would seem to be a cheap insurance policy.
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 12:22
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Spooky 2 View Post
Maybe I missed it earlier, but was this flight being conducted under pure Part 91, or was it a Part 135 operation?
NTSB briefing Tue Jan 28 said it was Part 135 charter.
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 12:26
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
However, had the aircraft been fitted with a TAWS, it might well have made a difference, if the pilot chose to act upon any terrain warning given and was able to act upon it.
Doubtful in this case. The data most likely eliminates CFIT, and most likely leads to spatial disorientation and loss of control due to fog.
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 13:24
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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Far more important than any hi-tech gadget is a simple rule of aviation - Plan the flight and Fly the plan. If you haven't got a plan B for bad weather then you didn't plan the flight properly.

Scud running with the chance of IIMC and relying on ipad/TAWS/EGPWS to save you when it goes wrong is pure folly.

If you are low level in poor weather below the level of the surrounding terrain - you must have an escape route.
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 13:33
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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At the outset they did have a plan B and a plan C too consulting with ATC. The flight continued with pilot discretion until control seems to have been lost, it was the pilot discretion the seems to have gone wrong.
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 13:40
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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But plan B and C just involved continuing at low level with only a change in routing to the North of Van Nuys due to departing IFR traffic.

A proper plan B would have been to turn back early, land or pull up to IFR above SALT.
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 14:37
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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Wreckage airlifted from scene.

If it hasn't been posted before. The article shows the a/c cockpit and rear seating configuration. Pictures of a/c being airlifted from scene.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/108467...box=1580305716
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 14:50
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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SLFMS provides us a very realistic account of a personal experience.

What I have found interesting in many of similar accounts is how technology or lack of technology figures in the account.

Without meaning any criticism of anyone....but making a general statement re Pilot flying skills....absolutely mandatory skills for those in very nice machines with all sorts of Bells and Whistles.....right down to those with a bare hare style panel.....you must be able to fly BASIC INSTRUMENTS.

Think about those "Good Old Days" when you felt lucky to have an OBS Inidcator and an RMI with two Needles...a single VOR/ILS Receiver and a single ADF Receiver......we flew IFR with just that.

No Auto Pilot,No TAWS, No GPWS, No Flight Director, no RadAlt.....and our training involved flying with just the Airspeed Indicator, Mag Compass, Altimeter, and Vertical Speed Indicator.....no Attitude Indicator.......known as the Emergency Panel.

To pass my IF ride in the US Army done in a UH-1H.....among the Flight Test Ride requirements was an NDB Hold followed by an NDB Approach on Emergency Panel.

It was darn hard work and thank goodness we are blessed with new and better gizmo's that make our lives far easier.

The key is.....as a Pilot....you must be able to fly your machine no matter what you have left to work with as those gizmo's quit working.

We have had the video about "Children of the Magenta" and other warnings about the lack of adequate basic flying skills by Commercial Pilots.

There have been several Airline Crashes due that lack of basic handling skills.

The question to ask yourself.....are you prepared...capable...current...AND Proficient to fly your machine on basic flight instruments or are you just a button pusher?

If you are honest and know you come up short....what can you do to bring yourself up to that minimum standard?

As long as you are deficient....do not expose yourself to any chance of having to rely upon those skills YOU lack.
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 15:07
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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I am concerned about the media (talk shows and late night comics) pushing the public towards demanding more in-flight safety devices like CVRs/FDRs/ and Terrain Awareness and Warning System (TAWS). Based on this accident and high profile VIP.

Just what perspective in this accident investigation supports this among the public?

In my curent myopic vision (pls help me change) The pilot said he was going up above the clouds. Does that also entail a change in course that would have been imprudent and prevented by a TAWS system?

In what way would a CVR have pointed to a single pilot mis-application?

Can the wreckage recovery still proceed to a point where it can determine if a mechanical fault occurred without reliance on a DFDR ?

Can we still not come up with a probable cause to satisfy the basis of continued safety?

I believe that it is premature to start calling for equipment changes before an investigation is completed
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 15:20
  #251 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
The question to ask yourself.....are you prepared...capable...current...AND Proficient to fly your machine on basic flight instruments or are you just a button pusher?

If you are honest and know you come up short....what can you do to bring yourself up to that minimum standard?

As long as you are deficient....do not expose yourself to any chance of having to rely upon those skills YOU lack.
Oh, geez. Oh, Jesus H. Christ. Whenever I read crap like the above, the question I always have is, "Do you know any helicopter pilots? Have you ever actually *met* any real helicopter pilots?" Because if SASless had met, say, two of them, he would understand that every darn helicopter pilot privately (and often publicly) considers himself to be the best in the business. In 40 years in this business, I have NEVER met a commercial pilot who honestly thought that his skills were even slightly not up to par. The thought is preposterous. It's quite the opposite, in fact. Every helicopter believes down deep in his soul that he can handle anything...ANYTHING...that gets thrown at him with the coolness of Chuck Yeager. "Rotor falls off? Heck, I'll just call a Mayday, pop the floats and set the beotch down! What, you mean you couldn't??" Read some of the pompous, self-righteous, over-the-top comments over on the JH "bad" board and you'll get the idea.

SAS often has some good things to say - and he does say a LOT of things - but he's off the mark here. No commercial pilot worth his salt is gonna engage in a little navel-gazing and then say to himself, "Ya know, I'm really not as good as I think I am."

Tough as it is to admit, Kobe's pilot screwed-up, plain and simple. I'd bet that he had his head down, fiddling with either his iPad or something on the centre console (GPS? VHF?). And when he looked back up it was, "Oh, $&*#, we're in it!" Then he began his left-turn course-reversal, which might have worked at 70 knots, but not 130 because the turn radius was too large and it put him in the hills on the opposite of the valley. Wouldn't be the first pilot to make such a dumb mistake; won't be the last, sadly.
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 15:22
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
I am concerned about the media (talk shows and late night comics) pushing the public towards demanding more in-flight safety devices like CVRs/FDRs/ and Terrain Awareness and Warning System (TAWS). Based on this accident and high profile VIP.

Just what perspective in this accident investigation supports this among the public?

In my curent myopic vision (pls help me change) The pilot said he was going up above the clouds. Does that also entail a change in course that would have been imprudent and prevented by a TAWS system?

In what way would a CVR have pointed to a single pilot mis-application?

Can the wreckage recovery still proceed to a point where it can determine if a mechanical fault occurred without reliance on a DFDR ?

Can we still not come up with a probable cause to satisfy the basis of continued safety?

I believe that it is premature to start calling for equipment changes before an investigation is completed
I feel the same. The narrative of the NTSB is "we cannot answer any speculative questions, we can only deal with known facts - and we know nothing at this stage", yet there is this apparent snipe at the FAA for "failing to implement" their recommendations intended to avoid a specific cause of accident. They are indirectly suggesting the cause before they've even begun the investigation.
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 15:29
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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There is a reason the airlines, and most corporate operators of turbine aircraft launch with two pilots. One pilot flying with another working communication, setting the nav equipment, and monitoring the pilot flying would have added much capability and been the least costly part of the operation.
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 16:44
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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As I read through these comments, thereís a possibility here that I havenít seen mentioned, and I base this on personal experiences.

I was a captain on an IFR flight in a VIP 76B. Our high net worth pax had been briefed that this would be an ifr flight due to weather, and expressed no issues or concerns.

At pretty much the same time as I called glide slope alive my co pilot started having what looked like an epileptic fit next to me. Our pax was leaning through the little sliding glass window behind the left pilot seat, grabbing and shaking the shoulder harness.

My partner in crime delt with it swiftly, professionally and firmly. Although we landed successfully I can only imagine what would have happened if I had been single pilot, low level SVFR in the hills at 140+ kias, and someone from behind started pulling on my seatbelt.

could this have been a pilot in control of the situation suddenly dealing with a stressed out, possibly nervous, already delayed person in the back distracting him at a critical time?

just a thought
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 16:53
  #255 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FH1100 Pilot View Post
Oh, geez. Oh, Jesus H. Christ. Whenever I read crap like the above, the question I always have is, "Do you know any helicopter pilots? Have you ever actually *met* any real helicopter pilots?" Because if SASless had met, say, two of them, he would understand that every darn helicopter pilot privately (and often publicly) considers himself to be the best in the business. In 40 years in this business, I have NEVER met a commercial pilot who honestly thought that his skills were even slightly not up to par. The thought is preposterous. It's quite the opposite, in fact. Every helicopter believes down deep in his soul that he can handle anything...ANYTHING...that gets thrown at him with the coolness of Chuck Yeager. "Rotor falls off? Heck, I'll just call a Mayday, pop the floats and set the beotch down! What, you mean you couldn't??" Read some of the pompous, self-righteous, over-the-top comments over on the JH "bad" board and you'll get the idea.

SAS often has some good things to say - and he does say a LOT of things - but he's off the mark here. No commercial pilot worth his salt is gonna engage in a little navel-gazing and then say to himself, "Ya know, I'm really not as good as I think I am."

Tough as it is to admit, Kobe's pilot screwed-up, plain and simple. I'd bet that he had his head down, fiddling with either his iPad or something on the centre console (GPS? VHF?). And when he looked back up it was, "Oh, $&*#, we're in it!" Then he began his left-turn course-reversal, which might have worked at 70 knots, but not 130 because the turn radius was too large and it put him in the hills on the opposite of the valley. Wouldn't be the first pilot to make such a dumb mistake; won't be the last, sadly.
I know plenty of pilots and most do know and will discuss their limitations.
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 16:55
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FH1100 Pilot View Post
Oh, geez. Oh, Jesus H. Christ. Whenever I read crap like the above, the question I always have is, "Do you know any helicopter pilots? Have you ever actually *met* any real helicopter pilots?" Because if SASless had met, say, two of them, he would understand that every darn helicopter pilot privately (and often publicly) considers himself to be the best in the business. In 40 years in this business, I have NEVER met a commercial pilot who honestly thought that his skills were even slightly not up to par. The thought is preposterous. It's quite the opposite, in fact. Every helicopter believes down deep in his soul that he can handle anything...ANYTHING...that gets thrown at him with the coolness of Chuck Yeager. "Rotor falls off? Heck, I'll just call a Mayday, pop the floats and set the beotch down! What, you mean you couldn't??" Read some of the pompous, self-righteous, over-the-top comments over on the JH "bad" board and you'll get the idea.

SAS often has some good things to say - and he does say a LOT of things - but he's off the mark here. No commercial pilot worth his salt is gonna engage in a little navel-gazing and then say to himself, "Ya know, I'm really not as good as I think I am."

Tough as it is to admit, Kobe's pilot screwed-up, plain and simple. I'd bet that he had his head down, fiddling with either his iPad or something on the centre console (GPS? VHF?). And when he looked back up it was, "Oh, $&*#, we're in it!" Then he began his left-turn course-reversal, which might have worked at 70 knots, but not 130 because the turn radius was too large and it put him in the hills on the opposite of the valley. Wouldn't be the first pilot to make such a dumb mistake; won't be the last, sadly.
Good theory, scud running must be done around 30/40 kts to avoid cloud
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 17:38
  #257 (permalink)  
 
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No surprises?

When I saw images of the wreckage trail I began to think that this was just another accident due, basically, to flying at low level in poor visibility: scud-running. That's something that has well-known risks, as pretty much anyone who has done that will agree. Most every holiday season in the foothills of the Appalachians saw the CAP van in our airport parking lot, since they were out looking for this or that family who had dinged in going visual in marginal VMC, into rising terrain.

The rest of this also goes with "just another accident involving someone famous."

"World's Greatest Pilot Who Would Never Screw It Up." Yes, well, anyone can screw it up!

"Lack of some bells and whistles on the accident aircraft." TAWS in that environment would have been a real distraction, unless the repetition of "TOO LOW! PULL UP!", the bleedin' obvious, is something you need to be told about, assuming that you do have the terrain in sight anyway. Lose sight of it and it's probably going to be "GAME OVER!" instead, but who needs to be told that?

"Helicopters are unsafe." Yes, and so are ladders! So? What, the guy should have walked to his destination? "Greatest basketball player ever mauled by mountain lion!"

Best one so far was "I also flew on that accident helicopter!" from one of the Kardashian clan.
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 17:46
  #258 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Helisweet View Post
Good theory, scud running must be done around 30/40 kts to avoid cloud
Like everything in life...it depends. If I'm scooting along at 600' agl under an overcast but the viz is pretty good, then a speed higher than 40 knots might be okay. Not far behind Kobe's pilot, Van Nuys Airport was calling their vis 2.5. So here's the judgment call. Maybe he felt that 130 knots was acceptable. Should he have slowed down? Apparently, while he was following "the 101" (as Californians like to call their roads), he came upon a little ridgeline that was cut (excavated) so the 101 could pass through. Or maybe the terrain features were such that there was a little narrow passageway between the hills and that's where they decided the road should go. Whatever. On the other (west) side of that ridgeline was a little valley. As he got into this valley is where we see the sudden left turn begin - where he departed from following the highway. My theory is that this is where he punched-in and decided to turn around instead of committing to an IFR flight.. Again, at 60 or 70 or even 80 knots...maybe no problem. But a turn at 130 knots? That takes up a LOT of real estate.
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Old 29th Jan 2020, 17:56
  #259 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FH1100 Pilot View Post
Tough as it is to admit, Kobe's pilot screwed-up, plain and simple. I'd bet that he had his head down, fiddling with either his iPad or something on the centre console (GPS? VHF?). And when he looked back up it was, "Oh, $&*#, we're in it!" Then he began his left-turn course-reversal, which might have worked at 70 knots, but not 130 because the turn radius was too large and it put him in the hills on the opposite of the valley. Wouldn't be the first pilot to make such a dumb mistake; won't be the last, sadly.
It probably is just that simple. And, he may have been lulled into a false sense of security, i.e. the ceilings may have been low but the vis not too bad for the mission up to that point, because I can't imagine why else he'd be hustling along at 130'ish under those conditions. Although he did have that hold to deal with which may have made their arrival late, adding additional pressure to fly fast.

P.S. I must be the exception to FH1100's helicopter pilot stereotype, because I always am measuring my own performance, rarely do I think "Well, damn, I really nailed that mission perfectly." There is always something that could have been done better.


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Old 29th Jan 2020, 17:57
  #260 (permalink)  
 
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It would appear some folks are lying to themselves.

We are all fallible....we all have perishable skills...but apparently the inability to admit to ourselves is the hardest thing for us to do....besides just saying the word "NO!" to our customer or employers.

For those that disagree with me....you will note I posted that as a request to take that step back and consider your own situation in the comfort of some place safe rather than discovering your shortcomings in a very dangerous if not fatal setting.

To win a War....you must know your enemy

I suggest they are us.
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