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G-LAWX S92 Incident AAIB

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G-LAWX S92 Incident AAIB

Old 14th Sep 2021, 20:35
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
But not here:
ShyTorque - perhaps I am missing something here and I apologise if I am but I believe that #105 alleges that there may be similar issues that have occurred after this event. I believe my post makes it clear that other posters have alleged this rather than this being a statement of fact. It is clear that we differ in views with regards to this matter and wouldn't life be boring if we all agreed all of the time however what fascinates me is how you defend the actions of this pilot given the facts as reported in the AAIB report..

Last edited by Undecided; 15th Sep 2021 at 07:18.
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Old 14th Sep 2021, 20:51
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
In jobs like this, where the weather goes against you, the pressure to go is always present or implied, much more so than in the airline world. The pilot has the option of possibly being stood up against the wall by the CAA, if it goes badly wrong, or directly on the day by the customer if a more cautious no-go option is chosen. I've often taken the latter option and then been taken to task by the aircraft owner, who after the event asks the opinions of non experts, such as his estate manager or taxi driver and tells you it was the wrong choice because "You would have got in".

Such is the lot of the corporate heli pilot and one needs to have very broad shoulders.
It clearly did go badly wrong so why haven’t the crew been ‘stood up against the wall’ by the CAA?
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Old 15th Sep 2021, 01:21
  #123 (permalink)  

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Please note that I haven’t defended the pilot involved. As I said, I don’t know him and have no reason to defend him. However, I have read the report and it’s obvious a lot of errors of judgement were made and things could have gone even more badly wrong, thank goodness they did not.

On a public forum such as this, further accusations against an individual based on hearsay (as in outside of the published report in this case) may require the individual making them to justify themselves in a court of law. The forum rules are quite clear on this; although it’s an anonymous place on the face of it, the owners of the website may be obliged to pass on details of any of us and will do so if required to do so in a legal situation. I have no desire to get involved in such an issue - having very recently seen the price lawyers charge these days I value my house too much. Having been a member of this forum since 1995, I tread the line carefully.

P.S. I hold absolutely no clout over the actions of the CAA!
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Old 15th Sep 2021, 07:31
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
Please note that I haven’t defended the pilot involved. As I said, I don’t know him and have no reason to defend him. However, I have read the report and it’s obvious a lot of errors of judgement were made and things could have gone even more badly wrong, thank goodness they did not.

On a public forum such as this, further accusations against an individual based on hearsay (as in outside of the published report in this case) may require the individual making them to justify themselves in a court of law. The forum rules are quite clear on this; although it’s an anonymous place on the face of it, the owners of the website may be obliged to pass on details of any of us and will do so if required to do so in a legal situation. I have no desire to get involved in such an issue - having very recently seen the price lawyers charge these days I value my house too much. Having been a member of this forum since 1995, I tread the line carefully.

P.S. I hold absolutely no clout over the actions of the CAA!
Fair enough. It seems a shame that open an honest discussions cannot take place and that this thread will effectively be shut down so no further learning will take place. Out of interest, do you believe that the same issues with regards to legal action should apply if the incident is discussed at the Cranfield SMS course?

Last edited by Undecided; 17th Sep 2021 at 04:04.
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Old 15th Sep 2021, 07:34
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Was it Double Bogey that was involved in the improvements in Night Offshore Approaches?.
Hi SAS, indeed twas me..........the odd thing was I met a lot of resistance amongst my very close training colleagues. Some of which simply could not make the adjustment that the Pilot Monitoring really has an Executive role to play in these types of approaches and the role of the Advanced cockpit and Automation could play. Lots of agreement and support form the Regulator and the wider Rotorheads community. I have to say it did not make me too popular with my own Company Training colleagues, many of which I felt understood more after the following spate of NS HF/Automation cock-ups. Looking back, the helicopters we began to operate were far more advanced than our thinking, strategy and understanding at the time. This led to very poor training responses which at the time were best characterised by an over reliance on manual handling skills. Most of the TR course for complex heavies still treat the automation like an afterthought rather than integrating the concepts right from the get-go. In my later role for the OEM we had one operator using EC225 and L2 with dual rated pilots. There risk assessment and analysis led them to conclude that "If the L2 doesn't have that feature we will not use it on the EC225", effectively reducing the 225 to an L2! As [pilots, trainers and managers we are the most influential players in our expert field! When we fail to analysis/adjust/mandate effectively it leads to horror shows like this one. Fear is the great moderator and a pilot without fear due to lack of understanding of the dangers he is about to experience is the most at risk.

Safety Officers, Risk Assessors and Nominated Post holders need a healthy active imagination in order to identify hazards and risk and mitigate effectively. Sadly, the modern SMSA, in my opinion, is an overly complicated and huge administrative burden on Operators that its true value and effectiveness is often lost in the ether.

Good to see you back in the Fray SAS long may it continue.

DB.
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Old 25th Sep 2021, 10:43
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.helis.com/database/cn/16331/

I wonder if the sale is related to the incident? Must have been some ride for the passengers.
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Old 25th Sep 2021, 15:17
  #127 (permalink)  
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i'm betting that both the toilet and the gearbox need attention ;-)
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Old 25th Sep 2021, 19:50
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Deleted nonsense

Last edited by Hadley Rille; 27th Sep 2021 at 10:48.
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Old 26th Sep 2021, 06:04
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Undecided View Post
https://www.helis.com/database/cn/16331/

I wonder if the sale is related to the incident? Must have been some ride for the passengers.
My understanding is no, the owner never flew in it a lot anyway. As a multi billionaire it's not about the money, he just doesn't use it any more and he is withdrawing from public life, likely because of his age (he's 84). It's been informally for sale for a while but I think we have now moved to active marketing. There are not many VIP S-92 for non Heads of State/ Royalty so what happens to it next will be interesting.
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Old 26th Sep 2021, 13:52
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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1400 hours in 14 years - and I bet a chunk of that was on the Penzance - Isles of Scilly route recently. Also, not a traditional VIP cabin as intended to ferry reasonable numbers around.
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Old 8th Oct 2021, 14:38
  #131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
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Jeopardy and Blame

Many of the contributors to this thread might be surprised to see a response from me, but I feel that if we are committed to making things better, and if any change for the better come is to from my bad example, then a degree of honesty and acceptance of criticism is warranted. I have not seen all the comments, but I can imagine what most of them say - and who they blame. For the avoidance of any doubt, may I set out here that I will never take umbrage or hold any personal grudge (nor will I ever seek or look to take action) against anyone who quite rightly questions and expressing shock and dismay at the apparent failings and errors highlighted in this most unfortunate - and ultimately avoidable - tale. Whatever is said and how ever it is said, I accept your right to say it.

I have seen a few comments that make reference to both the CAA and the Owner. May I state for the record, that the behaviour of both these has been exemplary and they have both set the highest standards of Just Culture and conduct. Neither of these people or organisations warrant or deserve the slightest criticism, and in fact they deserve your admiration and praise for their highest standards of conduct and empathy. I made two telephone calls within the first hour of landing. The first was to the Owner's office and the second was to the CAA to report what had happened. I will not share the details, but needlessly to say the Owner's office question was 'was this dangerous?', and my reply was that it was and it was my fault. The fact that they subsequently looked to understand the circumstances more fully rather than sacking me on the spot, is beyond belief and much to their credit - they are very rare people and deserve nothing less than your admiration. Similarly with the CAA, they accepted the information I gave them and rightly put me on notice that I may be subject to action following further investigation, but again - if you ever doubted that the CAA understands and follows Just Culture, I am an example that they do. The AAIB report paints a picture, but it is a picture of the incident - and you should all trust that the CAA make their own judgements. I was always fully ready to accept the judgement, whatever it was going to be.

I wish to also make sure everyone, who might not have a true understanding of the pressures and threats that are fundamentally part of Corporate Aviation (and you will never eliminate them, they can only be managed - it is like asking a fish not to swim in water); there was absolutely zero pressure applied by the owners in this story. Any pressure that might have been there (and there will always be pressure in any commercial aviation), it was not from them.

The reality is that no matter what your experience, and no matter how many excellent jobs or flights you have done in your past, we must all accept (or we should accept) that on any given day you will be in jeopardy of making errors in judgement and skill for as long as you sit in a cockpit. You may hope and pray that your worst day does not end up under the microscope of the AAIB, but it may - and you should never relax from watching out for the traps and pitfalls that can build quietly and silently into your otherwise 'normal day'. You all have a right to be brutally critical of my errors and mistakes, but I caution you to be careful - to fully understand any environment (and corporate aviation to off airfield landing sites at night are a very particular environment) there are many things you need to experience first hand to fully understand. It is very easy to say 'I would never' or 'that would never be me' - and I sincerely hope that it will never be you, if for no other reason than you have read this AAIB report - but there are a few things that I will tell you now: In an incident that rapidly develops into a life threatening situation, for the pilot flying (with all the other normal demands on attention in the cockpit) it cascades from normal to emergency like falling off a cliff, and the demands on your attention jump from 10 per second to a 1000 per second and if you think you will be reliably 100% of the professional pilot you are in the simulator - you are deluded. My experience, and you can disagree again, is that you will be lucky to hang onto 20% of that normally competent and good pilot - and you just hope that the remaining 20% is the skill and experience that climbs you out of the hole alive. I am not talking about the normal emergency situation, I am talking about the type of emergency situation where you know that what you do in the next 3 seconds determines the fate of you and everybody on board - and if you question whether that conscious thought actually takes place, remarkably enough, the answer is yes.

Should I have resigned? If anyone in this forum doesn't think that was my first, second and third thought - you do me an injustice. I ask you to understand that in my role I had to think about what that would have meant for the jobs and security of all the extremely valuable, professional and superb people that work in our team. I owed them my heartfelt apologies for letting them down so badly, but I also owed them every ounce of my energy and effort to make sure their jobs would be ok after it.

We have discussed this very openly and completely transparently in the team - when it first happened and when the report was published. I have no issues talking about it with anyone who genuinely wants to learn something about avoiding this again.

The microscopic examination and judgement of an AAIB investigation is never a kind or friendly experience, but it is a necessary and useful thing. You should note that there are possibly a thousand things you do in a day that are 'normal' variations on your best performance, and they will never be judged until the day there is a bad outcome; but once there is a bad outcome, everyone of them will be examined as an ;'error' or 'failing' that could or would contribute to the bad outcome - whether it did or didn't (because nobody can reliably know for sure).

I do not expect anyone to agree with whether I should still have a job, or whether I should still have a licence, but I ask you to listen to me when I advise you to never relax your attention to the subtle changes in threats in your normal day, that will build up without making a big noise or having one critical moment. I also advise you to recognise that no matter how good a pilot your are, as long as you sit in a cockpit, you are in jeopardy of making bad calls and bad judgements. Finally, my recommendation is that you listen to any first question of doubt in your mind during pre-flight planning, pause and check the cause for doubt - once your are airborne, the corridor of options can collapse around you and leave you just one door of consequence at the end remarkably quickly and possibly quicker than you can react.

I would ask you to all respect that this is not my finest moment, and my career will forever be coloured by this day in my life, but it is right and proper you should learn from it - as that is what we all owe to the future generation of pilots, learn from other's mistakes.

I understand your anger, but do not for a minute think that this matches my shame. But as an industry, hopefully, we will be better.

I do not propose to respond to any other posts on this thread - but you will have no objections from me regardless of what you feel the need to say.
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Old 9th Oct 2021, 00:44
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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Up there with the very best of posts this forum has ever seen. Thank you.
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Old 9th Oct 2021, 02:24
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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I also advise you to recognise that no matter how good a pilot your are, as long as you sit in a cockpit, you are in jeopardy of making bad calls and bad judgements
I would highly recommend everyone to have this very thought at the fore of their memory banks.

DrSM, thank you for your forthright post, I'm unable to remember when anyone, besides Dennis Kenyon, has given such a self examination in public,

Thank you Sir, and Salute.
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Old 9th Oct 2021, 08:21
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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DrSM I don’t know you but that was a very humble and honest post, thank you. Best of luck for the future….”there but for the grace of god, go I”
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Old 9th Oct 2021, 09:40
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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It is a very open and honest post - it is a shame that DrSM had to nearly crash before understanding the harsh realities of being a pilot and, that no matter how good you or others think you are, a situation can come and bite you in the arse if you are too confident in your own abilities to realise you are human.

Flying is so much more than being good on the sticks and poles - personality, attitude and self-awareness are key factors that colour the ultimate reason for every successful flight or disastrous one- Decision Making.

I have scared myself most in my career at night without doubt, mainly before the advent of NVG and anyone operating in such a regime should make huge extra allowances for human failings and err on the side of caution, no matter how clever the aircraft you are flying is.
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Old 9th Oct 2021, 12:27
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by helmet fire View Post
Up there with the very best of posts this forum has ever seen. Thank you.
Indeed. Thank you sir. We all need to take a lesson from you regarding humility, self-awareness and honesty, as much as safety.
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Old 9th Oct 2021, 17:38
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Heathcliff View Post
Indeed. Thank you sir. We all need to take a lesson from you regarding humility, self-awareness and honesty, as much as safety.
I agree,
Thanks.
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Old 9th Oct 2021, 19:19
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
It is a very open and honest post - it is a shame that DrSM had to nearly crash before understanding the harsh realities of being a pilot and, that no matter how good you or others think you are, a situation can come and bite you in the arse if you are too confident in your own abilities to realise you are human.
What an asshat.
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Old 9th Oct 2021, 19:51
  #139 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by SimonK View Post
DrSM I don’t know you but that was a very humble and honest post, thank you. Best of luck for the future….”there but for the grace of god, go I”
I concur with all of that.
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Old 9th Oct 2021, 20:55
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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Appreciate fully what Crab is saying.
Not sure how else anyone expected SM to respond if going ‘public’ - it was a very thoughtful post and well conveyed. For whatever reason the crew messed-up in spades - if it was truly multi-crew rather than 2-pilot.
Some of us have been fortunate enough to receive such a kick-up-the-ar5e early in our flying career and mentally-adjusted accordingly - we are all human and therefore will make mistakes but some of us don’t make a living preaching about it so do not open ourselves to such publicity.
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