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G-LAWX S92 Incident AAIB

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G-LAWX S92 Incident AAIB

Old 24th Jun 2021, 10:45
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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I agree SASless, I have seen some woeful use of automation over the years. Correct use of automation should be an integral part of a type rating. We donít want to lose hand flying skills as is happening in the airline world but having just got way out of shape and massively over-torqued the only sensible option in this incident was to engage the autopilot and then start working as a crew as to what they were going to do next. I am still completely mystified as to why a 6000 hour plus pilot would chose not to (or didnít have the knowledge how to) engage simple altitude hold and heading hold modes. I canít imagine how frustrating that must have been for the co-pilot with the poor manual flying skills being displayed by the Commander.

Last edited by Undecided; 12th Sep 2021 at 20:59.
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Old 24th Jun 2021, 11:09
  #82 (permalink)  

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I presume you mean “automation”…..but then again, maybe not; I’ve seen a few “automatons” in the cockpit in my time, too.
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Old 24th Jun 2021, 11:12
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Corrected! But me too.
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Old 24th Jun 2021, 11:14
  #84 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Shy,,,,,Perhaps the CAA might get out of the Dark Ages and start looking outside of their own small circle for Industry Best Practices THEN issue Mandates and Rules.

Our FAA is just as bad in that regard.....far too often the aircraft designers are far ahead of the technical expertise of the FAA which has an adverse effect on related. outcomes.

I am sure the CAA is no different.
Thankfully, they do now have a more enlightened staff when it comes to the rotary world and due to the efforts of certain individuals, the tide seems to be turning. There is some way to go with regard to other operational issues, but as I come to the twilight of my career, that is unlikely to happen in my time in the cockpit.
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Old 24th Jun 2021, 11:58
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Undecided View Post
I agree SASless, I have seen some woeful use of automation over the years. Correct use of automaton should be an integral part of a type rating. We donít want to lose hand flying skills as is happening in the airline world but having just got way out of shape and massively over-torqued the only sensible option in this incident was to engage the autopilot and then start working as a crew as to what they were going to do next. I am still completely mystified as to why a 6000 hour plus pilot would chose not to (or didnít have the knowledge how to) engage simple altitude hold and heading hold modes. I canít imagine how frustrating that must have been for the co-pilot with the poor manual flying skills being displayed by the Commander.
Proper understanding of automation is essential. Iím certainly not against the view of manually flying in IMC for the purposes of maintaining a perishable skill, however once presented with the evidence that your manual flying is of a detriment to the flight then itís time to leave it to the autopilot. Personally I think I would have been so spooked by the initial incident that I wouldnít hesitate to let the automation do it for me, instant stress reliever.
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Old 24th Jun 2021, 13:07
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by torqueshow View Post
Proper understanding of automation is essential. Iím certainly not against the view of manually flying in IMC for the purposes of maintaining a perishable skill, however once presented with the evidence that your manual flying is of a detriment to the flight then itís time to leave it to the autopilot. Personally I think I would have been so spooked by the initial incident that I wouldnít hesitate to let the automation do it for me, instant stress reliever.
Indeed. I canít imagine there are many pilots out there who are not 100% behind this comment. This was a very strange (and probably the least safe) decision in a stream of questionable decisions. I canít help but think that the CAA must be left in a difficult position now with regards to the AM position. It's one thing saying the right thing to pass an audit but when you are presented with concrete evidence of not doing the right thing - are they able to turn a blind eye?

Last edited by Undecided; 15th Sep 2021 at 06:01.
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Old 24th Jun 2021, 13:19
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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Food for thought....taken from the US FAA discussing Helicopter IFR Operations.

There are sections of the document that could be used to compare the actions of the Pilots in this incident and the Bryant tragedy, the OZ Huey crash...or every other CFIT crash....no matter what jurisdiction they occurred within.

Helicopter flying in marginal weather shall always be fraught with risk.....managing that risk is the key.




https://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli..._Chapter_7.pdf

Last edited by SASless; 24th Jun 2021 at 13:32.
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Old 25th Jun 2021, 05:37
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=SASless;11067530]Food for thought....taken from the US FAA discussing Helicopter IFR Operations.

There are sections of the document that could be used to compare the actions of the Pilots in this incident and the Bryant tragedy, the OZ Huey crash...or every other CFIT crash....no matter what jurisdiction they occurred within.

Helicopter flying in marginal weather shall always be fraught with risk.....managing that risk is the key.



I had not seen this document before and it contains some great advice. However, as you allude to, it does seem that some pilots are incapable of taking such advice no matter where they come from or their experience level. Perhaps itís time to rethink safety and rather than introduce more regulation that produces an increased admin burden on those that already comply, we simple identify those that are prone to taking risks and non compliance and stop them flying. This is what the motor industry does either through licence suspension or increased insurance premiums so it is not financially viable to drive.
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Old 25th Jun 2021, 07:27
  #89 (permalink)  

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Helicopter flying in marginal weather shall always be fraught with risk.....managing that risk is the key.
I’ve always said that VFR is safe. IFR is safe. It’s in between the two that is the tricky part. The main thing is to make a safe plan of how to do it and how to escape - and stick to it.
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Old 25th Jun 2021, 08:14
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
Gulli has been telling us of how common it is for Sim Students arriving without full understanding of the avionics onboard the aircraft they fly in the course of their employment..
That's right. Everything you need to know about it is written in the RFM and the AP manual, both of which are required to be carried in the aircraft. How it is that pilots arrive on annual recurrent simulator courses without knowing the system basics, or having a thorough functional knowledge of system operation, or knowing system operating limitations for that matter, when it is well documented in publications carried in the aircraft is an eternal mystery to me.
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Old 25th Jun 2021, 12:56
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Gulli.....you ask a. question that you very well know the answer.

Because t hey do not use that equipment on a daily basis, have no intention of using it, and therefore perceive there is not need to know anything about it.

That they are being flat assed stupid for all of t hat alludes them.

Far too often...we read of them in the newspapers and folks wonder how it could be they are no longer with us.

Every time those of that mindset crash in a simulator.....that should be a jolt to their sense of complacency they live in.....but they laugh it off and think the Sim is just a big ol' video game.

Many times I stopped the training after the first flight.....sent them to the classroom and turned on the video of "THEIR" performance in the cockpit.....then went for coffee while they watched "Their"" performance that resulted in what would surely have been a fatal accident.

Most times that was all that was needed to change their view about the seriousness of Simulator Training.

If I. did not see visible signs of a reawakening of the two....we did a step by step analysis of what they had done to kill themselves and every time we had to do that....I had their full and undivided attention afterwards.

Then it seemed the Sim sessions went a lot better.

It was. not "me" that made the difference....it was the accumulated experience of the Sim Instructors over the many Years that was analyzed and adopted into a program designed to expose trainees to procedures, techniques, and various ways of enhancing the safe operation of the aircraft....all of which were gleaned from earlier Trainees as well as the Instructors.

That is one example of going outside your own Operation to. look for new and/or better ways of doing what you do in your Operation.

:Lots of folks around the World are flying. Helicopters....we can and should learn from all of them as best we can.

One thing for sure is no one Operator or Authority has the monopoly on how to do this helicopter flying thing in a safe and efficient way.....as sometimes there are several right ways to do the same task....picking the best way is the key.

If you hold a ATPL....you are supposed to be a Professional....and that requires continuing study, learning in your Profession, meeting high standards of Professionalism.....and of course mentoring those who are new to the Profession.

I learned a lot while teaching in the Simulator....as lots of very good people passed through the school and they were a knowlege source that bore listening to when doing your instructing.

There were also some that Gulli describes that did not want to be there and resisted the opportunity to learn....and sadly even displayed a patently bad attitude of refusing to entertain the notion the Sim Training was of any value to them.....and it was them that needed that training the most.



ďNo matter how much experience you have, thereís always something new you can learn and room for improvement.Ē
Roy T. Bennett, The Light in the Heart

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Old 27th Jun 2021, 15:56
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting post SASless. Seems there are a few in the industry who just refuse to learn and looks like the industry doesn’t intend to do anything about it. Sad state of affairs really. Seems that even politicians have more honour - Matt Hancock quoted as saying - Those of us who make the rules have to stick by them and that’s why I have to resign.

Last edited by Undecided; 15th Sep 2021 at 06:02.
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Old 12th Aug 2021, 17:33
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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Report published: link to report on G-LAWX
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Old 12th Aug 2021, 18:19
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hilico View Post
Report published: link to report on G-LAWX
Post #34 - it was published mid-June...
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Old 12th Aug 2021, 18:44
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry - it was on August 2021's list...
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Old 12th Aug 2021, 18:52
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hilico View Post
Sorry - it was on August 2021's list...
Yes, they seem to Ďre-publishí bigger reports with the end of month summaries now. Trying to ensure it gets seen I suppose..
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Old 10th Sep 2021, 23:56
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Ironic or good value for money?
https://www.cranfield.ac.uk/courses/...ety-management
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Old 11th Sep 2021, 13:44
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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I can recommend that course, certainly worth your time!
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Old 11th Sep 2021, 13:46
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Originally Posted by Undecided View Post
I alluded to that in post 43
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Old 11th Sep 2021, 17:23
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jhieminga View Post
I can recommend that course, certainly worth your time!
Can’t comment on the course as I have never completed it however, if my 30 minutes on Google has given me the correct information than is this the biggest case of ‘do what I say not what I do’ in the history of aviation?

Last edited by Undecided; 15th Sep 2021 at 06:03.
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