This ride's a bit low, don't you think?
I guess I have to side with aa777888 on this one. I mean, this ain't the 1950's where we're all innocent of or naïve about the hazards and risks of helicopters. These days, you'd have to be living in a cave to not realize how dangerous they can be. And sooooo...if someone wanted to take one of those wild fair rides or the rock 'n roll 222 ride at the skydiver convention...then...their survivors can't really claim that they were completely ignorant of the risks. As long as most reasonable precautions are taken... And yeah, laws and regulations do get enacted to protect us from ourselves...but how much governmental injection in our lives is over-reach? Do I need the government to force me to wear a helmet when I ride my motorcycle? I think not. I mean, I do wear a helmet but I don't like to be told I have to. So I agree with aa777888 in that as long as it doesn't endanger innocents outside of the area of operation, what's the big deal?
Now, me personally...no, I wouldn't fly for such an operation. By balls must've shrunk as I've gotten older. I leave that kind of stuff (like Christmas tree slinging) for the younger, more capable pilots. That said, I didn't see anything extreme about the 222 flight. Which brings me to...
Actual Reason For This Post: Someone wondered if N222GQ still has insurance? Ironically enough, N222GQ was bought by an EMS operator, became N73RX and flew as an air ambulance for a while. Then, keeping the N73RX registration, it changed hands to a private owner who apparently has moved it Guatemala. So it's had a long and happy life since the thrill rides at Skydive Chicago in 2001. Must've been through more than a couple of Annual Inspections between then and now.
Now, me personally...no, I wouldn't fly for such an operation. By balls must've shrunk as I've gotten older. I leave that kind of stuff (like Christmas tree slinging) for the younger, more capable pilots. That said, I didn't see anything extreme about the 222 flight. Which brings me to...
Actual Reason For This Post: Someone wondered if N222GQ still has insurance? Ironically enough, N222GQ was bought by an EMS operator, became N73RX and flew as an air ambulance for a while. Then, keeping the N73RX registration, it changed hands to a private owner who apparently has moved it Guatemala. So it's had a long and happy life since the thrill rides at Skydive Chicago in 2001. Must've been through more than a couple of Annual Inspections between then and now.
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Does this mean that all road markings (double unbroken lines etc) and speed limits can be removed? Take away the guard rails on corners above cliffs? Remove all safety fences at lookouts? Take away all things that stop you from being free to do what you wish?
Horsefeathers.
Horsefeathers.
As you might imagine, I remembered that experiment right away, being completely taken by it when it happened 11 years ago, given my interest in personal freedom.
I live in a place where there are no helmet laws (for adults), no seat belt laws (for adults), and once upon a time (the 1980's) not even an open container law--yes, you could drink and drive as long as you were not over the limit (federal highway funding extortion put an end to that last freedom). And no permits are required to buy, own or carry any sort of firearm nor any sort of knife. And a plethora of additional freedoms other places don't have. Which is why I live here. We seem to get along just fine, indeed much better than other places that have all kinds of laws "to keep everyone safe". Laws, rules and regulations do not make you safe. They are no substitute for common sense, and do not stop those bent on doing stupid, or evil, stuff.
Anyhow, this seems to have digressed into philosophy more than aviation, although one can affect the other.
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Does this mean that all road markings (double unbroken lines etc) and speed limits can be removed? Take away the guard rails on corners above cliffs? Remove all safety fences at lookouts? Take away all things that stop you from being free to do what you wish?
Horsefeathers.
Horsefeathers.
Ah, aa777888 - the 'I'm alright Jack' philosophy - very enlightened.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Ah, aa777888 - the 'I'm alright Jack' philosophy - very enlightened.
You've missed the mark entirely. Those with strong Libertarian leanings such as myself are among the most likely to help a neighbor or a stranger and to do folks favors. And you make a mistake by equating a desire for freedom with the selfish, perjorative form of self interest, which is 100% incorrect, and because it may be the only form of self interest you understand. There is instead something called enlightened self interest. This latter form is not incompatible with the greater good, indeed it improves on it.
At any rate I'd be happy to debate with you at length the subject of socialism vs libertarianism, but this is probably not the right venue.
In the ideal world perhaps.
In this one however, the now defunct concept of common sense has departed the building and ignorance and stupidity is on the rise.
Rules are created because of the few not because of the many, and it has been shown time and again that people do need to be protected from themselves and from each other.
Do you think for one moment that if any of those flights didn't end well, that those onboard wouldn't be calling lawyers, claiming they didn't know and pointing fingers everywhere but themselves?
When hard lessons have been learned, celebrating that you don't need a helmet or a seat-belt isn't a display of freedom, it is a display of foolishness.
It is worth remembering that the damage and risk isn't confined to an individual.
When it goes wrong, others have to risk their lives to clean up the mess, not to mention the friends and families that must live with the consequences.
You can't live without risk, that is no way to live.
Throwing caution to the wind and hoping for the best isn't the solution either.
In this one however, the now defunct concept of common sense has departed the building and ignorance and stupidity is on the rise.
Rules are created because of the few not because of the many, and it has been shown time and again that people do need to be protected from themselves and from each other.
Do you think for one moment that if any of those flights didn't end well, that those onboard wouldn't be calling lawyers, claiming they didn't know and pointing fingers everywhere but themselves?
When hard lessons have been learned, celebrating that you don't need a helmet or a seat-belt isn't a display of freedom, it is a display of foolishness.
It is worth remembering that the damage and risk isn't confined to an individual.
When it goes wrong, others have to risk their lives to clean up the mess, not to mention the friends and families that must live with the consequences.
You can't live without risk, that is no way to live.
Throwing caution to the wind and hoping for the best isn't the solution either.
Something of a trumpet solo there aa777888 (look up blowing your own trumpet) are you sure you don't diverge into this territory?
Rational selfishness is a more individualistic form of enlightened self-interest. It is a term generally related to Ayn Rand's Objectivist philosophy, which refers to a person's efforts to look after their own well-being, to cultivate the self, and achieve goals for the good of the self. The focus in rational selfishness might be considered to be more self-directed (where the benefit to the group or society is a possible by-product) than the focus of enlightened self-interest which is more group-directed (and the benefit to oneself might be more of the by-product). Some authors say that this concept elevates egoism to the level of a moral principle
Not an insult my dear chap, but we have another saying over here - 'If the cap fits, wear it'.
Nuff said.
Nuff said.
Absolutely marvelous, that seems to be the end of what was a fascinating debate, better than Boris and Corbyn, Trump and the Democrats and Many other great debates... totally off thread but entertaining regardless!
As with all great debates it is time to vote. So here is mine.
Crab 57%
aa777888 43%
As with all great debates it is time to vote. So here is mine.
Crab 57%
aa777888 43%
SLB ... well said !! aa...don’t worry about Crab being rude and aggressive . It’s not his fault and he can’t help it . How would you feel if you were the very best at everything and then had to talk to complete idiots here , some of whom didn’t even train with Her Majesties forces God forbid ..... !!!
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Yeah. Igor Sikorsky, the Wright brothers.
Unhelmeted, unbuckled, unregulated idiots.
Endangering the public "stock" numbers and mindsets with their killer contraptions.
How else is everyone supposed to live forever in perfect physical health if not in their perfectly proscribed boxes?
While it's probably an unnecessary and circumventable risk, impressing young kids with a visceral experience in a helicopter. Might some be inspired to pursue a career in aviation from it? Are the best aviation candidates those kids who ve skinned their knees on bicycles and climbed real trees , or the kids raised hydroponically on the couch, safely digesting awesome computer graphics?
Just a hunch but I suspect the death defying, spluttering sound of a Robinson at a the local fair is as important a "sound of freedom" as the sonic boom, afterburner,twin turbine.
Fly on little Robbie, fly on...
Unhelmeted, unbuckled, unregulated idiots.
Endangering the public "stock" numbers and mindsets with their killer contraptions.
How else is everyone supposed to live forever in perfect physical health if not in their perfectly proscribed boxes?
While it's probably an unnecessary and circumventable risk, impressing young kids with a visceral experience in a helicopter. Might some be inspired to pursue a career in aviation from it? Are the best aviation candidates those kids who ve skinned their knees on bicycles and climbed real trees , or the kids raised hydroponically on the couch, safely digesting awesome computer graphics?
Just a hunch but I suspect the death defying, spluttering sound of a Robinson at a the local fair is as important a "sound of freedom" as the sonic boom, afterburner,twin turbine.
Fly on little Robbie, fly on...
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SLB ... well said !! aa...don’t worry about Crab being rude and aggressive . It’s not his fault and he can’t help it . How would you feel if you were the very best at everything and then had to talk to complete idiots here , some of whom didn’t even train with Her Majesties forces God forbid ..... !!!
Maybe it's coz he's from the Junior Service! 
Joking aside, I do understand much of what he says as Crab and I have similar backgrounds (I won't rub the Senior Service bit in too much ... honest .... and I wasn't Mil Aircrew). But I also see the side presented by aa777888 and others. Bottom line, only the Regulators decree "right" and "wrong", and through setting those "rules", act as the "moral guardians" for/on behalf of Joe/Jenny Public who, on the whole, cannot know enough to make an informed decision - hell, we struggle ourselves at times! That's how societies have asked Governments to protect them.
Of course, it is our duty to operate within those rules. Adding margins will deffo improve safety - but we see so many "Ops want this, I'd feel happier doing that" threads here as adding to the margins often costs dosh. So, providing you operate within the rules you are meeting the Regulators obligation to provide an approriate level of safety for whatever the task is, as demanded by society. If, as Captain, you add to those margins, that is a personal choice - and you may be asked to explain your decision to your seniors. And there is nothing that prevents one, as a member of society, from adding margins over and above those set by the Regulator, for e.g. not joining the queue for the flight at the showground.
Here tho, once your view is aired, I feel it's time to leave it for others to take or leave it. Feel that strongly - go and knock on the door of the Regulators as that is how things are changed.
Anyway, the sun has set over the Yardarm here so, in good Senior Service tradition, time to go check the Bar is open.
Drat, and I said I'd not go on about the SS! So sorry Crab! Hope you forgive me! Now, where is that G 'n' T?
Cheers, H 'n' H
Joking aside, I do understand much of what he says as Crab and I have similar backgrounds (I won't rub the Senior Service bit in too much ... honest .... and I wasn't Mil Aircrew). But I also see the side presented by aa777888 and others. Bottom line, only the Regulators decree "right" and "wrong", and through setting those "rules", act as the "moral guardians" for/on behalf of Joe/Jenny Public who, on the whole, cannot know enough to make an informed decision - hell, we struggle ourselves at times! That's how societies have asked Governments to protect them.
Of course, it is our duty to operate within those rules. Adding margins will deffo improve safety - but we see so many "Ops want this, I'd feel happier doing that" threads here as adding to the margins often costs dosh. So, providing you operate within the rules you are meeting the Regulators obligation to provide an approriate level of safety for whatever the task is, as demanded by society. If, as Captain, you add to those margins, that is a personal choice - and you may be asked to explain your decision to your seniors. And there is nothing that prevents one, as a member of society, from adding margins over and above those set by the Regulator, for e.g. not joining the queue for the flight at the showground.
Here tho, once your view is aired, I feel it's time to leave it for others to take or leave it. Feel that strongly - go and knock on the door of the Regulators as that is how things are changed.
Anyway, the sun has set over the Yardarm here so, in good Senior Service tradition, time to go check the Bar is open.
Drat, and I said I'd not go on about the SS! So sorry Crab! Hope you forgive me! Now, where is that G 'n' T?
Cheers, H 'n' H
No keep it up Hot . You are RN and definitely way higher in the pecking order than RAF where apparently they still sit next to their wives at dinner !! The Senior Service would never be so naff ....
they still sit next to their wives at dinner !! The Senior Service would never be so naff ....
Every generation does the best they know how.
Today, test pilots are a highly skilled bunch who's abilities are more than just being the only guys crazy enough to get into a new contraption.
In 20 or 30 years, future generations will probably look back at what we all did and shake their heads in disbelief, over their vegan latté.
That's just the way societies are, you learn from mistakes and you try improve.
The thrill of flying should be about the experience, not just an adrenallin rush from narrowly cheating death.
For that there are Robbies
Last edited by Bell_ringer; 25th Nov 2019 at 09:04.