This ride's a bit low, don't you think?
Yeah. But. It could be argued in this operation that the landing phase commences as soon as the take-off phase is complete. Therefore no breach of minimum height rules.
The Chief Pilot of that operation needs to be held accountable for the conduct of the operation. Not just with the flying of the helicopter, the control of passengers on the ground is a shambles.
The Chief Pilot of that operation needs to be held accountable for the conduct of the operation. Not just with the flying of the helicopter, the control of passengers on the ground is a shambles.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
B2N2 - amusing that you as a non-helicopter pilot can accurately assess the safety of that flight when a number of us that do fly helicopters for a living (the clue is in the name of the forum, Rotorheads) say it is inherently unsafe.
He is only in a position to make a safe engine off landing without hazard to others for about 5% of that flight - the rest of the time he and the kid in the front would be in a pretty horrific accident if the engine stopped/drivebelt failed etc.
He is only in a position to make a safe engine off landing without hazard to others for about 5% of that flight - the rest of the time he and the kid in the front would be in a pretty horrific accident if the engine stopped/drivebelt failed etc.
It appears to be inherently no more dangerous then flying a fixed wing single engine over a congested area.
Or a twin
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...236977663.html
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I can speak to this directly as a pilot who put many hours into the logbook flying fair rides in an R44 this past summer...
<snip>
...I could wax poetic about this for a long time. It's an interesting and challenging operating area, with many nuances and subtleties, seriously. To be done safely and profitably you need to bring your "A" game, and it needs to be "safety first, fun second, profit third".
<snip>
...I could wax poetic about this for a long time. It's an interesting and challenging operating area, with many nuances and subtleties, seriously. To be done safely and profitably you need to bring your "A" game, and it needs to be "safety first, fun second, profit third".
I can speak to this directly as a pilot who put many hours into the logbook flying fair rides in an R44 this past summer.
Clearly this guy gave some thought to an engine out problem, and some thought to noise abatement, but probably not enough thought to either. Both are serious issues that need to be respected in this game. He does fly over roadways and parking lots to apparently attempt to satisfy both issues. But, it appears the ride was 2 minutes for $20. At that price point you are a) on the "backside of the earning curve" i.e. you are spending too much time on the ground and b) it forces you to stay low and tight. $30 for 4-5 minutes is a much better "sweet spot". You can still bang out around $750 worth of loads an hour (gross, assumes a 2.5 load factor and 10 loads an hour) but operating tempo is greatly reduced which enhances safety, and you have the ability to fly higher and take more care with respect to your flight path and noise footprint. So IMHO it was too low.
As for how confined the spot was, that place was relatively easy compared to some. The biggest issue here is that American fair-goers are all SUPER-sized. And fairs attract these people like flies because of such fair staples as fried dough, chili dogs, and all kinds of other crap. You post a weight limit of 250 (although the POH limit is 300lb) because you know some folks will lie, you run with less than half tanks max., and if you get too big a load you split it up. Finally, you pick up, do a power check, and, if necessary put it back down and kick somebody out. It doesn't happen that often, but it does happen, and not everybody leaves happy, but they are alive. As a lightweight myself, when I get down to a quarter on the main and zero in the aux., just a couple of loads before it's time to fuel, that's when you get called out to take a heavy load. I've never done any high altitude training, but I suspect some of the same technique carries over. FWIW the ship in the video appeared to have about a quarter in the main and aux. each, but it was hard to see.
Finally there is ground safety. Almost everyone does this too casually for me. That said, if you put one person each side as a tail rotor guard/people catcher, it does only take one person to escort the new load out and the old load back. Then the catchers load up the ship, make sure everyone is belted in and doors are closed. In the video in question I see exactly one ground person, which is not enough. And then there are the little kids, mentally challenged individuals young and old, and the drunks, most of whom you don't want in the front seat, and some of whom you don't want on the helicopter at all. You hope the ground staff is sorting this stuff out for you, and mostly they do, but every once in a while somebody slips through the cracks.
As for "stunting", steep turns are always fun but you need to read your audience and you need to watch that blade slap. Happy sounds, not frightened sounds, are what you shoot for, and I always adjust my ride by chatting up the pax in the first minute and making a few maneuvers to test the waters. Plus if you are over population there's only so much of this you really want to subject the ground to from both a sound footprint and PR perspective. I've done events where nearly every ride had a few steep turns, and I've done events where nearly every ride was limousine smooth. It all depends on the audience and the venue.
I could wax poetic about this for a long time. It's an interesting and challenging operating area, with many nuances and subtleties, seriously. To be done safely and profitably you need to bring your "A" game, and it needs to be "safety first, fun second, profit third".
Clearly this guy gave some thought to an engine out problem, and some thought to noise abatement, but probably not enough thought to either. Both are serious issues that need to be respected in this game. He does fly over roadways and parking lots to apparently attempt to satisfy both issues. But, it appears the ride was 2 minutes for $20. At that price point you are a) on the "backside of the earning curve" i.e. you are spending too much time on the ground and b) it forces you to stay low and tight. $30 for 4-5 minutes is a much better "sweet spot". You can still bang out around $750 worth of loads an hour (gross, assumes a 2.5 load factor and 10 loads an hour) but operating tempo is greatly reduced which enhances safety, and you have the ability to fly higher and take more care with respect to your flight path and noise footprint. So IMHO it was too low.
As for how confined the spot was, that place was relatively easy compared to some. The biggest issue here is that American fair-goers are all SUPER-sized. And fairs attract these people like flies because of such fair staples as fried dough, chili dogs, and all kinds of other crap. You post a weight limit of 250 (although the POH limit is 300lb) because you know some folks will lie, you run with less than half tanks max., and if you get too big a load you split it up. Finally, you pick up, do a power check, and, if necessary put it back down and kick somebody out. It doesn't happen that often, but it does happen, and not everybody leaves happy, but they are alive. As a lightweight myself, when I get down to a quarter on the main and zero in the aux., just a couple of loads before it's time to fuel, that's when you get called out to take a heavy load. I've never done any high altitude training, but I suspect some of the same technique carries over. FWIW the ship in the video appeared to have about a quarter in the main and aux. each, but it was hard to see.
Finally there is ground safety. Almost everyone does this too casually for me. That said, if you put one person each side as a tail rotor guard/people catcher, it does only take one person to escort the new load out and the old load back. Then the catchers load up the ship, make sure everyone is belted in and doors are closed. In the video in question I see exactly one ground person, which is not enough. And then there are the little kids, mentally challenged individuals young and old, and the drunks, most of whom you don't want in the front seat, and some of whom you don't want on the helicopter at all. You hope the ground staff is sorting this stuff out for you, and mostly they do, but every once in a while somebody slips through the cracks.
As for "stunting", steep turns are always fun but you need to read your audience and you need to watch that blade slap. Happy sounds, not frightened sounds, are what you shoot for, and I always adjust my ride by chatting up the pax in the first minute and making a few maneuvers to test the waters. Plus if you are over population there's only so much of this you really want to subject the ground to from both a sound footprint and PR perspective. I've done events where nearly every ride had a few steep turns, and I've done events where nearly every ride was limousine smooth. It all depends on the audience and the venue.
I could wax poetic about this for a long time. It's an interesting and challenging operating area, with many nuances and subtleties, seriously. To be done safely and profitably you need to bring your "A" game, and it needs to be "safety first, fun second, profit third".
gulliBell wrote
That would be my argument exactly, if it was me!
Yeah. But. It could be argued in this operation that the landing phase commences as soon as the take-off phase is complete. Therefore no breach of minimum height rules.
We can debate and argue about the "safety" of such operation from now until kingdom come. Defenders - and surely the operator - will obviously say they're doing it safely and not violating any FAR's. Those of us with more experience and better judgment wouldn't go near such an operation - the risk is simply too high. I'm truly surprised that the FAA didn't get some noise/low-flying complaints.
aa777888's post was pretty darn good - a very "fair and balanced" appraisal. He's done that work (fair rides) and I have not. I have but one quibble. I timed the ride at just about (or just under) three minutes. (There was a slight edit just before the turnaround at the stadium that cut some time out.) The sign said $20 per person. Assuming a three pax minimum, that's $60 per ride. At three minutes per ride, you can do 20 rides per flight hour (collective up to collective down). That's friggin' $1,200 per flight hour - not too shabby! Now, we know that even though the minimum is supposed to be three pax, not *every* ride will have three. Still, even if your average load factor is 2.5, that's still $1,000 per flight hour. For an R-44. Here in the U.S., most of these state fairs last a whole week. See why the fair ride operators are drawn to this type of work?
aa777888's post was pretty darn good - a very "fair and balanced" appraisal. He's done that work (fair rides) and I have not. I have but one quibble. I timed the ride at just about (or just under) three minutes. (There was a slight edit just before the turnaround at the stadium that cut some time out.) The sign said $20 per person. Assuming a three pax minimum, that's $60 per ride. At three minutes per ride, you can do 20 rides per flight hour (collective up to collective down). That's friggin' $1,200 per flight hour - not too shabby! Now, we know that even though the minimum is supposed to be three pax, not *every* ride will have three. Still, even if your average load factor is 2.5, that's still $1,000 per flight hour. For an R-44. Here in the U.S., most of these state fairs last a whole week. See why the fair ride operators are drawn to this type of work?
And there is the problem - the justification for this inherently unsafe flying of fare-paying pax is making money - an end that seems to justify so many means when the operation is clearly too risky for most to contemplate.
The industry does not need joy-rides to develop pilots for proper commercial work - if you want to fly low and fast in a helicopter, sign up for the military.
The industry does not need joy-rides to develop pilots for proper commercial work - if you want to fly low and fast in a helicopter, sign up for the military.
aa777888's post was pretty darn good - a very "fair and balanced" appraisal. He's done that work (fair rides) and I have not. I have but one quibble. I timed the ride at just about (or just under) three minutes. (There was a slight edit just before the turnaround at the stadium that cut some time out.) The sign said $20 per person. Assuming a three pax minimum, that's $60 per ride. At three minutes per ride, you can do 20 rides per flight hour (collective up to collective down). That's friggin' $1,200 per flight hour - not too shabby! Now, we know that even though the minimum is supposed to be three pax, not *every* ride will have three. Still, even if your average load factor is 2.5, that's still $1,000 per flight hour. For an R-44. Here in the U.S., most of these state fairs last a whole week. See why the fair ride operators are drawn to this type of work?
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Apart from the flight safety aspect, which I am not qualified to comment on, surely irresponsible in terms of road safety. Something flying that low along a busy highway and over junctions could likely distract or scare drivers and cause a road accident.
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Yeah, it's pretty obvious you have not done these types of rides. A 3 minute ride will never give you 20 rides per hour, as you have load times in between each ride. Load times can vary from maybe 30 seconds for a quick turn around to a couple of minutes, depending on the crew and the passengers being unloaded and loaded. And don't forget about fueling every so often. However, it does look like the flight from the video stays too low.
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Again, there are a lot of subtleties and nuances associated in optimizing these operations for safety, efficiency, and profit.
From an operational tempo perspective, consider that 10 loads an hour (5 min. flying, 1 min. on the ground, give or take for both segment), at a load factor of 2.5, and $30 per seat, is $900 per collective Hobbs hour gross, $750 per straight hour vs. the previously discussed $1000/collective, $750/straight time at $20/seat same load factor and a 15 loads per hour pace. 15 loads per hour is very difficult on people, machines, and safety. This isn't slinging Christmas trees. It's just not worth the extra $100. If you are falling behind on your 10 loads per hour because of a difficulty during unload/load, you just shorten up the next 2 or 3 rides. Nobody notices, no fuss, no muss. At 15 loads an hour you are just not going to maintain that pace. Charge more, go slower, people will pay, it's safer.
Ferry time matters. On site fuel is critical, you can't be sending helicopters for fuel. You need to shut down periodically and check fluid levels and telatemps. Do you bring one, two or even three helicopters? At an agriculture or just fun fair you are lucky to keep one helicopter continuously busy. At any sort of "gear head" event (tractor pull, drag racing, etc.) you almost can't bring enough helicopters. Gear heads will wait in line for an hour for a 4 or 5 minute experience! At one of those busy events at least one relief pilot is a requirement, two is nice if you have two ships working. Two ships works your ground staff twice as hard, so you bring more. Will the venue safely accommodate space for 2 or 3 helicopters? The list on how to do this well goes on and on.
As for safety, these op's are under Part 91, need an LOA from the FAA, and the venue will often require additional insurance coverage. Not saying there aren't questionable op's out there, but if so it's partially due to lack of FAA and underwriter oversight. You know that any op you mount is going to result in a ton of social media videos. People are looking at these. Do you really want to be on social media doing something dumb and have to answer to the FAA or, much, MUCH worse in today's insurance environment, your underwriter?
On a more personal note, doing these events can be a ton of fun. Every load is different, people are pretty jolly at fairs and similar events, and the hours you put in your log book represent much more challenging flying than droning along on a 20 or 30 minute scenic flight. But like any kind of flying, it's not everyone's cup of tea.
From an operational tempo perspective, consider that 10 loads an hour (5 min. flying, 1 min. on the ground, give or take for both segment), at a load factor of 2.5, and $30 per seat, is $900 per collective Hobbs hour gross, $750 per straight hour vs. the previously discussed $1000/collective, $750/straight time at $20/seat same load factor and a 15 loads per hour pace. 15 loads per hour is very difficult on people, machines, and safety. This isn't slinging Christmas trees. It's just not worth the extra $100. If you are falling behind on your 10 loads per hour because of a difficulty during unload/load, you just shorten up the next 2 or 3 rides. Nobody notices, no fuss, no muss. At 15 loads an hour you are just not going to maintain that pace. Charge more, go slower, people will pay, it's safer.
Ferry time matters. On site fuel is critical, you can't be sending helicopters for fuel. You need to shut down periodically and check fluid levels and telatemps. Do you bring one, two or even three helicopters? At an agriculture or just fun fair you are lucky to keep one helicopter continuously busy. At any sort of "gear head" event (tractor pull, drag racing, etc.) you almost can't bring enough helicopters. Gear heads will wait in line for an hour for a 4 or 5 minute experience! At one of those busy events at least one relief pilot is a requirement, two is nice if you have two ships working. Two ships works your ground staff twice as hard, so you bring more. Will the venue safely accommodate space for 2 or 3 helicopters? The list on how to do this well goes on and on.
As for safety, these op's are under Part 91, need an LOA from the FAA, and the venue will often require additional insurance coverage. Not saying there aren't questionable op's out there, but if so it's partially due to lack of FAA and underwriter oversight. You know that any op you mount is going to result in a ton of social media videos. People are looking at these. Do you really want to be on social media doing something dumb and have to answer to the FAA or, much, MUCH worse in today's insurance environment, your underwriter?
On a more personal note, doing these events can be a ton of fun. Every load is different, people are pretty jolly at fairs and similar events, and the hours you put in your log book represent much more challenging flying than droning along on a 20 or 30 minute scenic flight. But like any kind of flying, it's not everyone's cup of tea.
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Yeah, it's pretty obvious you have not done these types of rides. A 3 minute ride will never give you 20 rides per hour, as you have load times in between each ride. Load times can vary from maybe 30 seconds for a quick turn around to a couple of minutes, depending on the crew and the passengers being unloaded and loaded. And don't forget about fueling every so often. However, it does look like the flight from the video stays too low.
It matters not one bit how much "time" it takes to accrue those flight hours (as aa777888 keeps confusingly referring to). Time on the ground is irrelevant. Again, who cares? What matters is what that aircraft is costing you! Yeah, you might put in a 10- or 12-hour duty day hopping rides but only put 6.0 on the Hobbs. Sure, there's ground time, time to refuel, lunch/pee break for the pilot... But if those 6.0 hours generate $6,000 for you, it ain't half-bad money, methinks. The DOC on an R-44 is, what, $190/hour? So that 6.0 hours on the Hobbs COST you $1,140? Oooh, you did a total of one hour ferrying back and forth to a nearby airport for fuel because you're a dummy and don't have fuel on site? Big deal, that hour only *cost* you $190 - all your other expenses stay the same. It really isn't rocket surgery.
Soooo....nice little profit, even considering those expenses (pilots, hotel room, local fees, etc) might add up to another $2,000 per day,. Still almost $3,000 PROFIT per day? And how many days will we work this season? Now, does it ever work out so perfectly? Of course not - no business ever works in real life like the blue-sky numbers on paper that we show the banks.
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Sorry, you guys are all correct. It's stupid to pay attention to the details, to maximize revenue safely, to actually run a business and all that sort of thing. Oh, wait, I forgot, it's PPRUNE 
Not sure what you mean by "direct operating cost", but the actual cost before profit of a busy R44 (one that is flying at least 500 hours a year) is about $250/hr. It's probably up a little given the recent 20-50% increases in insurance cost in the US this year.
Not sure what you mean by "direct operating cost", but the actual cost before profit of a busy R44 (one that is flying at least 500 hours a year) is about $250/hr. It's probably up a little given the recent 20-50% increases in insurance cost in the US this year.