BK117 diferences to the C2 and D2

[berlioz]

Hello to all

Im getting a bit confused with ll the BK117, EC145´s out there

The original is the BK117, tail rotor and full analogue displays. Then the BK117 C2 appeared, that brings a upgraded fuselage and the same tail and new digital instruments. And finally the H145 that has de same frame as the BK117C2 but with fenestron and full EFIS.

Is this more or less correct??

And nowadays under EASA are this all under the same type? Or does EASA make it a different type specially the BK117 to H145?

To upgrade from the BK117 to the BK117C2 what is required?? And from the BK117C2 to the H145?

Thank you all for helping to solve this

Safe landings

[Nubian]

This should help you.
https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...0-%20draft.pdf

[rrekn]

The issue is the technical designation vs the marketing designation.

'Classic' BK = BK117A-1 to BK117C-1
EC145 = BK117C-2
H145 = BK117D-2

For more info, see the TCDS available at: https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...20150407_0.pdf

[hueyracer]

The H145 is a different type rating.

Basically, you can do a type rating on Bk117, then do differences training to fly EC145.

But in order to fly a H145, you need a separate type rating.

Thanks to Airbus..

[TeeS]

Originally Posted by hueyracer

The H145 is a different type rating.

Basically, you can do a type rating on Bk117, then do differences training to fly EC145.

But in order to fly a H145, you need a separate type rating.

Thanks to Airbus..

Nope. The BK117 C-2 (EC145) is the same type as the BK117 D-2 (H145) only differences training required. The other members of the BK117 family are different types. Thank you Airbus Helicopters for inventing the most complex naming convention in the history of helicopters!

Cheers
TeeS

[hueyracer]

You can either get a type rating on Bk117, then do differences training to fly an EC145....

Or do a type rating on H145.


See here:

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...Helicopter.pdf

[TeeS]

Huey, I either misunderstand your point or you misunderstand the Type Rating & Licence Endorsement List - to clarify:

If you carry out the training and LST on a BK117 A-1, A-3, A-4, B-1, B-2 or C-1 your licence will state BK117. Changing between any A or B to a C-1 or vice versa will require differences training.

If you carry out the training and LST on a BK117 C-2, C-2e, D-2 or D-2M your licence will state BK117(EC145). Changing between any C to a D or D-2M will require differences training (as will changing between C-2 and C-2e)

For those who haven't suffered the naming conventions on what Airbus advertise as an H145, it is technically called a BK117 D-2, also referred to as an EC145T2 in official documents, written in your licence as an EC145(BK117), is an EC45 over the radio or in a flight plan. Not surprising we get confused!

Cheers

TeeS

[hueyracer]

I think we are talking about the same thing....

I was still under the impression that the designator "BK117/EC145" was entered as "H145" into the license (the way it was proposed initially), and should have looked at the list before posting...


I was one of the few who got to fly the C2 with my BK177 type rating before it became an additional rating....

[noooby]

And don't forget the BK117-850D2, which says D2 but isn't an EC145. It is actually a B2 with upgraded engines.

Why didn't Airwork just call it the 850B2 instead????

[Flying Bull]

at the factory course they told us, that they had to incorporate the warning panel, even so all warnings could be displayed on the master list - otherwise the H145 couldnt be build as a BK ��

[berlioz]

Ok, let me see if i got it somewhat right...

The BK117 C1 and C2 are under the same type rating......

And the BK117D2 is a new type rating...and renamed H145 ;-)

Sounds right?

Thank you

[RVDT]

even so all warnings could be displayed on the master list

Not so - the master list is part of the avionics and is digital with possible failings. When it all turns to crap the warning panel is all you have left for all the really important stuff!

There is also a flaw in the warning panel on the D2. When you do a lamp test only the required lamp segments illuminate so therefore you have to count them as the unused ones do not illuminate!!
There are 2 configurations so you also have to know your particular aircraft. Don't know how that got past certification for such an important piece of equipment.

The BK117 C1 and C2 are under the same type rating......

Dont think so as a C1 is basically a "B" model with Arriel 1 engines.

Lets not get started on the technical naming conventions versus commercial. There is actually no such thing as an EC145T2 although a lot of the technical data uses this term.

Just as there is no such thing as Helionix Step 3. It is Helionix Step 2 Maintenance Release 1. Yet the term is used all the time - annoying.

I hold Part 61 and 66 on the D2 and soon the D3. On the Part 66 side you take pride in getting things correct yet the technical data is littered with errors which unless you know the details it is confusing.

If you spend enough time with Airbus you realise just how dysfunctional things can be!!

[Flying Bull]

Originally Posted by RVDT

Not so - the master list is part of the avionics and is digital with possible failings. When it all turns to crap the warning panel is all you have left for all the really important stuff!

There is also a flaw in the warning panel on the D2. When you do a lamp test only the required lamp segments illuminate so therefore you have to count them as the unused ones do not illuminate!!
There are 2 configurations so you also have to know your particular aircraft. Don't know how that got past certification for such an important piece of equipment.



Dont think so as a C1 is basically a "B" model with Arriel 1 engines.

Lets not get started on the technical naming conventions versus commercial. There is actually no such thing as an EC145T2 although a lot of the technical data uses this term.

Just as there is no such thing as Helionix Step 3. It is Helionix Step 2 Maintenance Release 1. Yet the term is used all the time - annoying.

I hold Part 61 and 66 on the D2 and soon the D3. On the Part 66 side you take pride in getting things correct yet the technical data is littered with errors which unless you know the details it is confusing.

If you spend enough time with Airbus you realise just how dysfunctional things can be!!

well, if you loose all of the MFD (Multi Function Displays), I doubt, that you will get any new information from the warning unit.
Its actually doubled - except of one point

WARNING LIGHTS ON WARNING UNIT
AP . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 – 4
BAT OVHT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 – 55
CARGO SMOKE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 – 97
ENG1 and 2 FAIL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 – 67
ENG1 or 2 FAIL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 – 68
FIRE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 – 98
LOW FUEL1/2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 - 104
MGB OIL P . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 - 116
ROTOR RPM (in conjunction with ENG1 and 2 FAIL) . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 – 67

WARNING INDICATIONS (ML)
AUTOPILOT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 – 4
BAT OVERHEAT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 – 55
CARGO SMOKE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 - 97
ENG1 and 2 FAIL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 – 67
ENG1 or 2 FAIL . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 – 68
ENG1 or 2 FIRE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 – 98
FUEL1/2 LOW . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 - 104
MGB LOW PRESS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 - 116

the only additional warning is Rotor RPM in conjunction with both engines failed - but in that case, my eyes would be outside, RPM information gatherd by hearing.
I see your point with the lamp test, it would be better to have crossed out markings for the lights not used, instead of leaving them blank.
That there is room for improvement throughout Airbus, no question.
But which builder is without errors?

[Kulwin Park]

Originally Posted by RVDT

Dont think so as a C1 is basically a "B" model with Arriel 1 engines.

I used to service both types. The "B2" was standard Japanese or German built, with Honeywell LTS101-750's turbines fitted. Later came an improvement to upgrade to CAT-A performance of LTS101-850 turbines. The "C1" model was only German built maybe, with Turbomeca Arriel 1E2 turbines fitted. This also required the 'VARTOMS' to be fitted. A few noticeable differences between the aircraft as well, configuration and interior/cockpit items.

[krypton_john]

EC145 has tail rotor and EC145T2 has fenestron, right?

[TeeS]

HI Flying Bull
I believe there is a backup power supply to the warning panel (and the bus tie contactors) which I assume means that if you lose the essential bus bars the master caution continues to operate.
Cheers
TeeS

[Flying Bull]

Originally Posted by TeeS

HI Flying Bull
I believe there is a backup power supply to the warning panel (and the bus tie contactors) which I assume means that if you lose the essential bus bars the master caution continues to operate.
Cheers
TeeS

Nope, the Emer Bus (Batterie) supplies only the Emergency Exit lights and the IESI (backup AI).
With generators and batterie offline thats all you have left....

@kypton-john, the T2 was a short term naming wich isnˋt around anymore.
Its either the H145 (M145 for military) or BK117-D2 in the flight manual

[TeeS]

Hi Flying Bull
Check out the Battery Backup Relay 1715PA - If the essential bus bars are disconnected, this relay provides power to the bus tie system and the warning unit direct from the battery hot bus. Whilst it doesn't help if the battery is flat, I believe it does supply power to the warning unit if the essential bus bars are taken out of the equation.
Cheers
TeeS

[skadi]

Originally Posted by Flying Bull

@kypton-john, the T2 was a short term naming wich isnˋt around anymore.
Its either the H145 (M145 for military) or BK117-D2 in the flight manual

Is the military version named H145M?

skadi

[212man]

Originally Posted by skadi

Is the military version named H145M?

skadi

Yes you are correct. Same logic with Aeroplanes - all models prefixed with an A and military models suffixed with an M.