Loss of visual references
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Loss of visual references
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/a...ual-references
AAIB report: Agusta Westland AW189, loss of visual references
Agusta Westland AW189 helicopter (G-MCGR), loss of visual references during a mountain rescue, Beinn Narnain, Scotland.
Sounds like they scared themselves fartless - due to poor execution of a valley turn and the belief that the automatics will save you.
The crew liaised with the Mountain Rescue Team (MRT) who recovered the climbers on foot.
Seems there was some very good airmanship in retrieving what had become a very bad situation.
Last edited by SASless; 15th Aug 2019 at 17:07.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Sounds like they scared themselves fartless - due to poor execution of a valley turn and the belief that the automatics will save you.
Have a little more respect.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Sounds like they scared themselves fartless - due to poor execution of a valley turn and the belief that the automatics will save you.
I know you, and I know the pilot involved, and I know which one I’d like to fly with. So please, this is a forum for professional helicopter pilots not willy waving children. Let’s leave the insults aside.
Like SAS, it looked to me like this crew gave it a great try in really lousy weather, and used their heads doing it. Only question I had was technical, and about the AFCS configuration ( never having been in any of the modern AW machines ) and specifically: it seemed like they had basic pitch and roll attitude hold but heading hold was not a basic part of that mode and had to be engaged separately as an autopilot mode? Hence the right yaw when there was oodles of left pedal margin. Subject for after action discussion perhaps. The in cockpit display setup was impressive.
The basic question I have is why the first response to the Hikers was the Helicopter and not the Ground Rescue Team?
I googled the general location and see from the Sat View there are easily discerned trails in the area.
The Accident Report noted the Hikers had Torches that were seen on the FLIR.
No mention was made of any injury to the hikers or why they felt they needed rescue.
The Report stated the aircraft notified the ground team and they then went to the Hikers and walked them out on foot.
I googled the general location and see from the Sat View there are easily discerned trails in the area.
The Accident Report noted the Hikers had Torches that were seen on the FLIR.
No mention was made of any injury to the hikers or why they felt they needed rescue.
The Report stated the aircraft notified the ground team and they then went to the Hikers and walked them out on foot.
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And course you have never got yourself into a tricky SAR op have you? Did the RAF SAR Force, of which you were a trainer, never have anything like this?
I know you, and I know the pilot involved, and I know which one I’d like to fly with. So please, this is a forum for professional helicopter pilots not willy waving children. Let’s leave the insults aside.
Crab - you could try and rein it in a little from time to time - maybe take up painting or yoga. Pprune sadly continues to be a rubbish place to openly discuss anything meaningful such as this...
Anyone care to explain the AFCS panel ;ALTA;MOT,WTR,TD/H....please....
Personally I would not be tempted to use a `Baro ht,or a radar alt coupled mode in that terrain....
ed. Can you set a specific height for the baro/rad alt to capture,like f/w autopilots ie a/f 4000...?
Personally I would not be tempted to use a `Baro ht,or a radar alt coupled mode in that terrain....
ed. Can you set a specific height for the baro/rad alt to capture,like f/w autopilots ie a/f 4000...?
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I dont see anything contentious about:
" Sounds like they scared themselves fartless - due to poor execution of a valley turn",
and I am guessing if you asked the crew they would agree that pretty much hit the nail on the head. ... However, I also agree with SASless:
"Seems there was some very good airmanship in retrieving what had become a very bad situation." - Once they regained their situational awareness, the crew were discilplined enough to review their decisions including automation modes, and fixed the situation. Could be an interesting case study for my next CRM training event!
" Sounds like they scared themselves fartless - due to poor execution of a valley turn",
and I am guessing if you asked the crew they would agree that pretty much hit the nail on the head. ... However, I also agree with SASless:
"Seems there was some very good airmanship in retrieving what had become a very bad situation." - Once they regained their situational awareness, the crew were discilplined enough to review their decisions including automation modes, and fixed the situation. Could be an interesting case study for my next CRM training event!
DDW - do get off your high horse - they were doing a tricky job but they made a mistake - and if you don't think climbing in a valley turn when you want to descend and use your escape route is an error then I don't want to fly with you in the mountains.
I suspect the crew debrief contained a similar critique once they got back to base.
I have done plenty of night mountains in skoshie weather as have lots of others but very few end up like this so to pretend it is OK is to do everyone a dis-service.
Can you not see the incorrect use of AP modes when the IAS is too low for engagement is an error? - a simple wings level and max power would have been quicker than trying to use GA and TU.
I feel sure the crew would take my comments as valid rather than jumping on the outrage bus as you have done.
No-one said night mountains was easy.
I do wish I knew who you are so I can can give an appropriate amount of credibility to your comments
I suspect the crew debrief contained a similar critique once they got back to base.
I have done plenty of night mountains in skoshie weather as have lots of others but very few end up like this so to pretend it is OK is to do everyone a dis-service.
Can you not see the incorrect use of AP modes when the IAS is too low for engagement is an error? - a simple wings level and max power would have been quicker than trying to use GA and TU.
I feel sure the crew would take my comments as valid rather than jumping on the outrage bus as you have done.
No-one said night mountains was easy.
I do wish I knew who you are so I can can give an appropriate amount of credibility to your comments
Sycamore - ALTA is Altitude Acquire, dial in an alt and press the button and the aircraft flys you there at a preset rate of climb or descent.
MOT is Mark on Target, used to initiate an automatic letdown, usually in two stages to end up in the hover.
-
WTR is Winchman's Trim - the winch op can fly the aircraft in the hover using a hand controller since he can see what is directly under the aircraft. Good for night wets.
TD/H is Trans Down/Hover - in the 139 you press it once to take you to 200' and 80 kts and then again to get you down to your desired hover height.
The HOV referred to is the Hover mode available below 60 kts (if it is the same as the 139) which automatically couples the RHT (Radio Height Hold) - the HOV speed and direction can be set by the pilot to maintain a slow and controlled movement.
The GA is Go Around which also (If like the 139) is the same button on the collective that can initiate a go around from an instrument approach or a Trans Up (TU) from the hover.
MOT is Mark on Target, used to initiate an automatic letdown, usually in two stages to end up in the hover.
-
WTR is Winchman's Trim - the winch op can fly the aircraft in the hover using a hand controller since he can see what is directly under the aircraft. Good for night wets.
TD/H is Trans Down/Hover - in the 139 you press it once to take you to 200' and 80 kts and then again to get you down to your desired hover height.
The HOV referred to is the Hover mode available below 60 kts (if it is the same as the 139) which automatically couples the RHT (Radio Height Hold) - the HOV speed and direction can be set by the pilot to maintain a slow and controlled movement.
The GA is Go Around which also (If like the 139) is the same button on the collective that can initiate a go around from an instrument approach or a Trans Up (TU) from the hover.
You may well be right Crab .... but you have to admit you do have an “ arsey “ way about you which does put peoples hackles up ! In boxing terms I would say you lead with your chin !!
By the way surely if you are very close to the top of the high ground it would be safer to climb rather than reduce height in cloud ?? 10 seconds of climbing to safe altitude sounds much better than descending in cloud into a valley which could have filled in behind you .... then you really are in the proverbial ?
By the way surely if you are very close to the top of the high ground it would be safer to climb rather than reduce height in cloud ?? 10 seconds of climbing to safe altitude sounds much better than descending in cloud into a valley which could have filled in behind you .... then you really are in the proverbial ?
Nigel - you are from Yorkshire, you should be used to people being direct
SAR crew debriefs were always direct and to the point - there is nothing to be gained by just fluffing people's egos but perhaps that is the brave new world.
If you know the cloud above you is thin and you will get VMC then up is better but you then might not be able to complete the rescue.
It is a natural reaction to pull the nose up as you turn, especially with the ground coming up towards you but the valley turn was taught in a specific way to stop this happening - I and others used to teach pilots to push as you turn - you didn't actually push but it was enough of a prompt to prevent climbing into cloud next to the granite.
The PM could have been briefed to fly the turn since all the references were on his side but I don't know the relative experience of the crew, he may have been a new co-pilot/FO.
Overreliance on the automatics is a well documented issue in modern aviation - the modern helicopter AFCS is very capable but sometimes you just have to fly the aircraft.
SAR crew debriefs were always direct and to the point - there is nothing to be gained by just fluffing people's egos but perhaps that is the brave new world.
If you know the cloud above you is thin and you will get VMC then up is better but you then might not be able to complete the rescue.
It is a natural reaction to pull the nose up as you turn, especially with the ground coming up towards you but the valley turn was taught in a specific way to stop this happening - I and others used to teach pilots to push as you turn - you didn't actually push but it was enough of a prompt to prevent climbing into cloud next to the granite.
The PM could have been briefed to fly the turn since all the references were on his side but I don't know the relative experience of the crew, he may have been a new co-pilot/FO.
Overreliance on the automatics is a well documented issue in modern aviation - the modern helicopter AFCS is very capable but sometimes you just have to fly the aircraft.
Overreliance on the automatics is a well documented issue in modern aviation - the modern helicopter AFCS is very capable but sometimes you just have to fly the aircraft.
From the conclusion and safety recommendations section at the end of the report
so despite DDWs abuse, someone clearly decided there were lessons to be learned from that incident and took exactly the right action.
Shortly after the incident, the operator introduced a scenario-based training exercise for all pilots that reproduced the incident during six-monthly recurrent training and testing. The training was continued with an emphasis on unusual attitude recovery
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
From the conclusion and safety recommendations section at the end of the report so despite DDWs abuse, someone clearly decided there were lessons to be learned from that incident and took exactly the right action.
DDW - the difference is that I make remarks based on the organisation, the equipment, the SOPs or the incidents yet you and others just hurl personal abuse because you don't like what I have to say.
I may have gone OTT sometimes in the past but only because I care about UK SAR - I still work with experienced SAR operators, ex-RN, er RAF and ex-Civ and we routinely discuss such incidents as this one and my opinions don't really differ from theirs.
Re Bristow criticisms - I have lost count of the times I have been told by ex-colleagues that some of my concerns about civilianising SAR were correct, especially in the early days of the contract.
I am quite aware that the service is maturing nicely and getting the job done well - as it should with the latest aircraft and equipment.
If you don't like my 'nasty self righteous nonsense' then fine but don't just call me names, counter my arguments with facts - like you failed to do with the pay scales issue. The report on this incident seems to support my initial comments.
Feel free to PM me to remove your anonymity so we can have a proper discussion but I don't expect you will.
I may have gone OTT sometimes in the past but only because I care about UK SAR - I still work with experienced SAR operators, ex-RN, er RAF and ex-Civ and we routinely discuss such incidents as this one and my opinions don't really differ from theirs.
Re Bristow criticisms - I have lost count of the times I have been told by ex-colleagues that some of my concerns about civilianising SAR were correct, especially in the early days of the contract.
I am quite aware that the service is maturing nicely and getting the job done well - as it should with the latest aircraft and equipment.
If you don't like my 'nasty self righteous nonsense' then fine but don't just call me names, counter my arguments with facts - like you failed to do with the pay scales issue. The report on this incident seems to support my initial comments.
Feel free to PM me to remove your anonymity so we can have a proper discussion but I don't expect you will.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
DDW - the difference is that I make remarks based on the organisation, the equipment, the SOPs or the incidents yet you and others just hurl personal abuse because you don't like what I have to say.
I may have gone OTT sometimes in the past but only because I care about UK SAR - I still work with experienced SAR operators, ex-RN, er RAF and ex-Civ and we routinely discuss such incidents as this one and my opinions don't really differ from theirs.
Re Bristow criticisms - I have lost count of the times I have been told by ex-colleagues that some of my concerns about civilianising SAR were correct, especially in the early days of the contract.
I am quite aware that the service is maturing nicely and getting the job done well - as it should with the latest aircraft and equipment.
If you don't like my 'nasty self righteous nonsense' then fine but don't just call me names, counter my arguments with facts - like you failed to do with the pay scales issue. The report on this incident seems to support my initial comments.
Feel free to PM me to remove your anonymity so we can have a proper discussion but I don't expect you will.
I may have gone OTT sometimes in the past but only because I care about UK SAR - I still work with experienced SAR operators, ex-RN, er RAF and ex-Civ and we routinely discuss such incidents as this one and my opinions don't really differ from theirs.
Re Bristow criticisms - I have lost count of the times I have been told by ex-colleagues that some of my concerns about civilianising SAR were correct, especially in the early days of the contract.
I am quite aware that the service is maturing nicely and getting the job done well - as it should with the latest aircraft and equipment.
If you don't like my 'nasty self righteous nonsense' then fine but don't just call me names, counter my arguments with facts - like you failed to do with the pay scales issue. The report on this incident seems to support my initial comments.
Feel free to PM me to remove your anonymity so we can have a proper discussion but I don't expect you will.