R44 Crash Leicester 3rd August 19

[rotorspeed]

I suspect this will prove to be yet another accident when the aircraft has failed to be carefully and progressively flown from the moment the collective is lifted from the bottom stop, to returning to it on landing.

[gipsymagpie]

Rule 5?

I presume the operator had permission from the CAA to land in a congested area iaw with Rule 5. Wouldn't the take off location and departure area have been designated on that permission (ie wouldn't being so close to the house have been formally considered?).

[gulliBell]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

...I wonder if he pre-positioned the pedals on lift forgetting his power in the hover (and therefore his pedal requirement) with just himself would be less than with his pax when he had landed.

That's a mistake one makes on their first solo...after that it should be etched in the mind at every take-off.

[[email protected]]

That's a mistake one makes on their first solo...after that it should be etched in the mind at every take-off.

Agreed but it depends on what else he flys routinely. I was dual qualified on Lynx and Gazelle many years ago and regularly jumped from one to the other to give instruction - on the Lynx, left pedal was power pedal and on the Gazelle it was right. Despite the fact I had over 1000 hours on each, I still said to myself each time on the first takeoff, it's a Lynx, left pedal or it's a Gazelle, right pedal.

In this case, the distraction of having his family watching him and, in his mind perhaps, the thought that the difficult part of the trip had been successfully completed, might have lowered his arousal level for basic flying techniques.

[sycamore]

Hypothesis ; helo arrives to p/u 3 people,probably shut-down and restart,,flies away for the jolly around Leicester,returns sometime later ,lands and parks ,nose upslope.,probably shutdown again whilst pax disembark...for Mum`s orange juice...

Note the aircraft attitude prior to moving back, hardly changes,snags rear of stbd skid,and possibly `stinger`,causing yaw left,and messing up the lawn.. Slope of ground is 9-10*....Totally wrong technique for sloping ground,and you never `pre-position the pedals for t/o`....Is that a `go-pro` camera on the end of the stabiliser...?
Change of CG from heavy to light...

[212man]

and you never `pre-position the pedals for t/o

I agree (although we have no idea if that was done). You look out the window and keep the nose straight with whatever inputs are required.

[nigelh]

It is interesting to see how many people actually think about which is power pedal for each aircraft they fly .
personally I don’t care which aircraft I’m flying and don’t even think about pedals .... I was taught to put in the pedal required ... end of !!! With different weights and winds you put in different pedal for lift off ... it’s not always the power pedal !!

[[email protected]]

So as you raise the lever up to the point where the aircraft is light on the skids but in full contact with the ground, are you saying you don't put any pedal input? Every helicopter I have flown needs pedal applied before you lift off and before the nose starts to yaw.

As soon as the lever comes off the min pitch stop you are progressively adding pedal or you won't achieve a smooth take-off.

[[email protected]]

it’s not always the power pedal !!

Nigel - unless you have a stonking crosswind from the power pedal side, it certainly will always be power pedal.

[malabo]

Wasn’t a confined area, just the camera angle gives that illusion. Dynamic rollover from a rushed, ham-fisted takeoff. Aircraft was rocked back from a rushed takeoff with too much aft cyclic, and dug in the right rear skid while drifting back and with the pilot still pulling in power. Would have got away with it on a paved surface at an airport.

[sycamore]

Malabo,;last sentence,first word..`.may`........

[[email protected]]

More likely to be the rear of the left skid to dig in since that would normally be the last point of contact in a normal takeoff.

[nigelh]

Depends on the Helicopter Crab ... and if you are very light . The point I was really making is that you should respond to what the aircraft does and not presume an input . I fly both US and European helicopters and have never thought about which way the blades go !!

[[email protected]]

I fly both US and European helicopters and have never thought about which way the blades go !!

Well that must make you super-duper good then Nigel because I fly both too and I do think about it before the first take off.

But then for many years I have taught students to take off as slowly as they can so they understand the subtleties of taking an aircraft from the level attitude on flat ground to the hover attitude and then manage it smoothly instead of jerking into the air and then achieving a hover.

I agree that watching out the front window and monitoring the aircraft's tendency yaw, roll and pitch is the way to do it but some pre-positioning of the controls happens before the change occurs - it is the motor program you have learned and your control inputs will always be ahead, in anticipation, rather than purely reactive.

[Kiwi500]

Have to say Nigel that I’m with Crab.....and I’ve had a 20,000 hour plus tell me he does the same. I think a little mental pre-briefing may not do any harm if it goes to puss shortly after 👍

[nigelh]

I think we are probably in agreement really ....you know in your head what to expect from the particular type you are in and you are probably automatically ahead of it . I was really pointing out that some people ( mainly low hour ) worry about changing types and worry about pedals . I am just saying it doesn’t matter if you forget which way the blades are going ... it doesn’t make any difference to how you fly it !
( and that comes from a number of other high time pilots !!! )
Moral is ... don’t make a problem when there isn’t one .

[Flying Bull]

Originally Posted by nigelh

I think we are probably in agreement really ....you know in your head what to expect from the particular type you are in and you are probably automatically ahead of it . I was really pointing out that some people ( mainly low hour ) worry about changing types and worry about pedals . I am just saying it doesn’t matter if you forget which way the blades are going ... it doesn’t make any difference to how you fly it !
( and that comes from a number of other high time pilots !!! )
Moral is ... don’t make a problem when there isn’t one .

I´m actually with Nigel. With ever so smooth bringing up the collective, you feel which pedal is needed.
Learned that after getting confused by which one is the power pedal switching between helicopters and had a nice turn starting ;-)
And Yes, I´ll bring up power pedal when raising the collective - but you will feel, if you mock up, before you´re leaving the ground.
You will even feel the reaction with a bird at ground idle and slight pedal input (i.e., when checking the hydraulics)

[[email protected]]

FB - you rather contradict yourself there - in your first sentence you imply you wait to see which way it wants to yaw before applying pedal - but in the third sentence you say you apply power pedal as you raise the lever.

As I said, you anticipate the initial requirement for power pedal and then finesse it as the aircraft starts to lift.

[nigelh]

Always have to have the last word Crab ! Can’t you accept that we don’t all operate in the same way ?
Some of these guys who do it my way have way more hours than you !! If you like your way .... that’s fine !!

[Flying Bull]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

FB - you rather contradict yourself there - in your first sentence you imply you wait to see which way it wants to yaw before applying pedal - but in the third sentence you say you apply power pedal as you raise the lever.

As I said, you anticipate the initial requirement for power pedal and then finesse it as the aircraft starts to lift.

Hi Crab,

I bring the power pedal - cause I feel which one is needed, not because I have to think about, which one I need ;-)
No contradiction ;-)

Lately I had the chance to fly an american build demonstrator (fly fenstron in daily life).
The safetypilot was a little bit "stiff", when it came to the lift off moment - but he relaxed immediatly, when he recognized, that I nursed the bird into the air - instead of catapulting it.
The pilot after me jerked the bird of the ground - even so he arrived at the scene with another model of that manufacturer....

And if you fly it off the ground smoothly, you have the chance to lower the collective, if it is not responding as advertised.
Guess the R44 would still be flying ;-)