RAF go from Dambusters to Dam builders
Meh. Who cares, watching a chinook doing the job is just far more interesting than someone with a maverick complex shuffling about in a french squirrel.
viva la Brexit.
or not.
whichever annoys the most the fastest
viva la Brexit.
or not.
whichever annoys the most the fastest
I believe time was of the essence in stabilising the dam, not getting the cheapest quote! Although you continue to ignore the night/ bad weather question, I believe the military ability to operate 24/7 to save lives and property would have been the overriding factor.
We we all know what happens when you accept the lowest quote.
We we all know what happens when you accept the lowest quote.
Merely pointing out the following
As 350 would be quicker, cheaper and more accurate with a longline, reasons
1. Longline with single pilot more accurate so bags could be placed not dropped
2. The pick up could be much closer to the dam and hence shorter flight time
3. Pilot would be more used to a high number of cycles per hour along with the crew eg probably a bag every 1.5 minutes or so
4. Like flying on instruments lifting quickly and safely and accurately is a perishable skill
5. Takes seconds to hook a bag on to a longline hook
6. Most RAF pilots don't do it that regularly. I am just a novice at doing it as i have around 700 hours lifting. The military dont fly a huge amount of hours and not solely lifting, not their fault it is all to do with budgets.
It is really tools for the job.
I would agree that great training exercise, great PR for RAF and shows the public that we sorely need our military. but the question was is it cheaper and more efficient !
As 350 would be quicker, cheaper and more accurate with a longline, reasons
1. Longline with single pilot more accurate so bags could be placed not dropped
2. The pick up could be much closer to the dam and hence shorter flight time
3. Pilot would be more used to a high number of cycles per hour along with the crew eg probably a bag every 1.5 minutes or so
4. Like flying on instruments lifting quickly and safely and accurately is a perishable skill
5. Takes seconds to hook a bag on to a longline hook
6. Most RAF pilots don't do it that regularly. I am just a novice at doing it as i have around 700 hours lifting. The military dont fly a huge amount of hours and not solely lifting, not their fault it is all to do with budgets.
It is really tools for the job.
I would agree that great training exercise, great PR for RAF and shows the public that we sorely need our military. but the question was is it cheaper and more efficient !
I spent about 2000 hours slinging loads on Chinooks - everything from bags of aggregate to boats, to containers, to towers. But I'll bend to your 700 hours of p1ssing around in a paraffin budgie. Yes, they should have got Jo Blow with his squirrel in, as long as the weather is good, which it wasn't.
We get it, your company has idle AS350's. If your phone didn't ring, there may have been a reason.
Static source - it used to be called Military Aid to the Civil Community (MAAC) but it's probably got a new and funky title now.
The Chinook also used to be a on a 2-hour national standby which would be very expensive for a civil operator to provide.
The Chinook also used to be a on a 2-hour national standby which would be very expensive for a civil operator to provide.
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From the time when I spent a lot of time around Toddbrook Reservoir, there are 4 water control methods. The main inlet stream can be diverted around the lake, there is a small low level outflow pipe, and a small weir copes with normal overflow conditions. The large auxiliary spillway is there to take extreme rainfall. The latter was replaced / installed in the 60's or 70's. Most of the time the water level is maintained well below the level of both the weir and the auxiliary spillway, and in the years I was there, I never saw the spillway in active use. I assume that on this occasion the stream inlet control was overwhelmed by the sheer amount of water, hence the need to dump bags of aggregate there.
Paxing All Over The World
Today from the BBC with drone footage and photos. Including a great one from the local residents "Keep Your Chinook Up"
BBC Web
BBC Web
Crab
What is the roads closed got to do with it ? If you are the emergency services then you open them !
Lets assume that the bags are a mile from the drop zone, I suspect and knowing the area one could get them way closer. Then the 350 will have a turn round time of around 2 mins per bag. So 400 bags is 800 minutes or 13.3 hours call it 15 to be on the safe side.
We would have 2 pilots so at a real push could do those bags in a day
AS 350 £15000
Positioning £ 4000
Crew x 2 days £ 1800
Jet a1 £ 1800
Contingecy 15% £ 3120
So £ 25720 is the bill my company would charge. I might be wrong on teh distance, but that would be the advantage of the 350 and a longline.
Did you notice the bag rolling down the hill on the news ?
What is the roads closed got to do with it ? If you are the emergency services then you open them !
Lets assume that the bags are a mile from the drop zone, I suspect and knowing the area one could get them way closer. Then the 350 will have a turn round time of around 2 mins per bag. So 400 bags is 800 minutes or 13.3 hours call it 15 to be on the safe side.
We would have 2 pilots so at a real push could do those bags in a day
AS 350 £15000
Positioning £ 4000
Crew x 2 days £ 1800
Jet a1 £ 1800
Contingecy 15% £ 3120
So £ 25720 is the bill my company would charge. I might be wrong on teh distance, but that would be the advantage of the 350 and a longline.
Did you notice the bag rolling down the hill on the news ?
Thread Starter
At the end of the day, it was a job well done, great training for the RAF guys that would still be getting paid and training elsewhere, probably broke up their regular routine and they all received well deserved thanks from all.
Why contract a job like that out? it cost the taxpayers nothing... Our Forces are permanently on the payroll to help at anytime for ANY reason...
Why contract a job like that out? it cost the taxpayers nothing... Our Forces are permanently on the payroll to help at anytime for ANY reason...
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you guys from the forces aren't going to like hearing this, but having watched a couple of the videos, i think that a couple of AS350s with longlines and good lifting pilots would have kept up, or maybe beaten the chinook. On the videos i saw they took 2 minutes to place the bags that they had transported to the Dam. now if you are doing 6 bags in 6 minutes, and it takes the same time to hook up the 6 bags, that is 4 minutes of hovering around out of every 6 minutes, therefore roughly 1 minutes flight each way.
Any utility pilot worth his pay would have the bag placed in a couple of seconds, so they would be doing at least 2 trips to one of the RAF, maybe more.
Economically there is no way that you can say the RAF doesn't have a cost, the cost would be known, and the cost would be way more than doing it commercially, even though the RAF need to be paid anyway, and it is good training for the RAF to go and do a good job supporting the community.
And yes, far cooler watching a chinook cruising around than a couple of froggies doing laps...
And i don't actually care, as i am pretty sure that they weren't going to get me to come all the way from NZ to do the job, so i am just looking at the logistics, timing and cost of the operation.
Any utility pilot worth his pay would have the bag placed in a couple of seconds, so they would be doing at least 2 trips to one of the RAF, maybe more.
Economically there is no way that you can say the RAF doesn't have a cost, the cost would be known, and the cost would be way more than doing it commercially, even though the RAF need to be paid anyway, and it is good training for the RAF to go and do a good job supporting the community.
And yes, far cooler watching a chinook cruising around than a couple of froggies doing laps...
And i don't actually care, as i am pretty sure that they weren't going to get me to come all the way from NZ to do the job, so i am just looking at the logistics, timing and cost of the operation.
Yes, there was so much time available to put the contract out for tender, watch the operators cut each other's throats on price, choose the lowest bidder and then find out they couldn't fly in the bad weather or at night.........
And conveniently ignore that a sad recent fatality with the report in this months AAIB bulletin .....was an AS350 with an underslung load.
And conveniently ignore that a sad recent fatality with the report in this months AAIB bulletin .....was an AS350 with an underslung load.
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The weather was so bad that there were shadows on the ground...
lots of jobs are done without going to tender. The military aren't the only people that can jump at a moments notice, it happens for fires around the world, and numerous other operations. And while in the UK the standard call might be to the RAF, in other parts of the world the phone goes and a helicopter can be in the air very quickly...
lots of helicopters crash, and lots of people die. if we eliminated every risk we would never get off the ground, and pretty sure that the Airforce manage to crash just as well as the rest of us...
A true risk assessment on that operation wouldn't have a chinook hovering within a few feet of an extremely unstable dam with all that weight of water behind it. You could possibly say that a small helicopter would be better as it would create far less downdraft and pounding on the dam wall.
You would also say that they should have extended the lines by at least a few meters to keep the machine further away from obstacles.
so please don't continue with the RAF never does anything wrong and civvies don't know how to do anything crap. We are all capable of doing good work and we are all capable of crashing and killing people, quite often through stupidity...
lots of jobs are done without going to tender. The military aren't the only people that can jump at a moments notice, it happens for fires around the world, and numerous other operations. And while in the UK the standard call might be to the RAF, in other parts of the world the phone goes and a helicopter can be in the air very quickly...
lots of helicopters crash, and lots of people die. if we eliminated every risk we would never get off the ground, and pretty sure that the Airforce manage to crash just as well as the rest of us...
A true risk assessment on that operation wouldn't have a chinook hovering within a few feet of an extremely unstable dam with all that weight of water behind it. You could possibly say that a small helicopter would be better as it would create far less downdraft and pounding on the dam wall.
You would also say that they should have extended the lines by at least a few meters to keep the machine further away from obstacles.
so please don't continue with the RAF never does anything wrong and civvies don't know how to do anything crap. We are all capable of doing good work and we are all capable of crashing and killing people, quite often through stupidity...
The only people turning this into a civ vs mil pi**ing contest are those who keep asserting that civilian helicopters could have done it instead, rather than accepting that it was done the way it was for a variety of reasons which can be easily criticised with 20/20 hindsight.
And possibly praising the quick response and successful outcome achieved by using the military assets.
And possibly praising the quick response and successful outcome achieved by using the military assets.
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crab, you are so good at diverting a conversation i will just give up.
just remember the best operations look at everyone else out there to see what they can use to improve themselves...
just remember the best operations look at everyone else out there to see what they can use to improve themselves...
I'm not diverting the conversation - the thread is about the dam and the efforts to save it which were achieved in part by the use of a Chinook.
Some have had their nose put out of joint because the work wasn't given to a civilian operator who could allegedly do it better/faster/cheaper. Whether or not any of those things are true, the fact it is was done the way it was because the emergency services wanted quick response and they got it - job done, move on.
All this 'I could have done it so much better in my Squirrel' is utter conjecture and pretty damn pointless.
Some have had their nose put out of joint because the work wasn't given to a civilian operator who could allegedly do it better/faster/cheaper. Whether or not any of those things are true, the fact it is was done the way it was because the emergency services wanted quick response and they got it - job done, move on.
All this 'I could have done it so much better in my Squirrel' is utter conjecture and pretty damn pointless.
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do you actually read other peoples responses, or do you just keep hammering away at everything.
I have never had a squirrel, and probably never will.
I never said i could have done it better, I'm on the wrong side of the world i would still be tying to get there....
All i did was put across an opinion in answer to a question that someone else asked about smaller machines doing the same job.
i didn't realise that different points of view weren't allowed to be discussed.
i even stated that it would have been better to watch the chinook work than the squirrels
you keep hammering about the bad weather, the sun was out and shadows on the ground...
maybe in the future, read what someone writes and take it in the context of what they have written and not what someone else has written.
And sorry but dragging in a random 350 accident is diverting the conversation.
Maybe you could take some of your own advise. job was done, conjecture was made about different size helicopters doing the same job, opinions were posted, if you don't like seeing different opinions or conjecture about the time it would take for someone else to do the job, move on...
just because someone states that someone could do what the RAF has done, and maybe faster or slower, or cheaper or more expensive, doesn't mean that we are criticising the RAF, just posting an opinion in the inter web to find other opinions.
90% of what is posted on here is pretty darn pointless and a lot of it comes from you!
I have never had a squirrel, and probably never will.
I never said i could have done it better, I'm on the wrong side of the world i would still be tying to get there....
All i did was put across an opinion in answer to a question that someone else asked about smaller machines doing the same job.
i didn't realise that different points of view weren't allowed to be discussed.
i even stated that it would have been better to watch the chinook work than the squirrels
you keep hammering about the bad weather, the sun was out and shadows on the ground...
maybe in the future, read what someone writes and take it in the context of what they have written and not what someone else has written.
And sorry but dragging in a random 350 accident is diverting the conversation.
Maybe you could take some of your own advise. job was done, conjecture was made about different size helicopters doing the same job, opinions were posted, if you don't like seeing different opinions or conjecture about the time it would take for someone else to do the job, move on...
just because someone states that someone could do what the RAF has done, and maybe faster or slower, or cheaper or more expensive, doesn't mean that we are criticising the RAF, just posting an opinion in the inter web to find other opinions.
90% of what is posted on here is pretty darn pointless and a lot of it comes from you!
Super F, you said
and then defend yourself by saying you have never owned a squirrel but state
and
That's not conjecture, just bigging yourself up and if the above isn't meant to be a direct criticism of the RAF and their aid to the community it certainly sounds like it both from the content and tone of your posts.
I did read what you wrote but perhaps you didn't proof read it before you hit send.
Did you see the night photo or other videos where the weather was poor before you assert the weather must be good because there were shadows FFS?
you guys from the forces aren't going to like hearing this, but having watched a couple of the videos, i think that a couple of AS350s with longlines and good lifting pilots would have kept up, or maybe beaten the chinook.
Any utility pilot worth his pay would have the bag placed in a couple of seconds, so they would be doing at least 2 trips to one of the RAF, maybe more.
as i am pretty sure that they weren't going to get me to come all the way from NZ to do the job
I did read what you wrote but perhaps you didn't proof read it before you hit send.
Did you see the night photo or other videos where the weather was poor before you assert the weather must be good because there were shadows FFS?
Super F,
Not one of you ‘cheapest quote’ jockeys have commented on your ability to operate at night and or poor weather, 24/7, which, when the crews were called out, was a distinct possibility. I doubt very much you could have been on scene within 2-3 hours of being contacted or should that be ‘contracted’.
Not one of you ‘cheapest quote’ jockeys have commented on your ability to operate at night and or poor weather, 24/7, which, when the crews were called out, was a distinct possibility. I doubt very much you could have been on scene within 2-3 hours of being contacted or should that be ‘contracted’.
Super F,
We are both of the same soil, so we are both aware the regulatory regime in the UK is very different to NZ, where the NZ CAA is.... let's say 'light touch' when it comes to RW operations.
That said, looking forward to watching the Wallabies get smashed this evening.
We are both of the same soil, so we are both aware the regulatory regime in the UK is very different to NZ, where the NZ CAA is.... let's say 'light touch' when it comes to RW operations.
That said, looking forward to watching the Wallabies get smashed this evening.
That said, looking forward to watching the Wallabies get smashed this evening
