Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

R44 Down at Hayward Exc Airport Pilot killed Student injured

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

R44 Down at Hayward Exc Airport Pilot killed Student injured

Old 16th Jul 2019, 11:38
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London/Atlanta
Posts: 444
Received 13 Likes on 10 Posts
R44 Down at Hayward Exc Airport Pilot killed Student injured

San Francisco Chronicle reporting that the pilot was killed and student seriously injured yesterday, the report also includes 10 year statistics for R44 crashes. The aircraft belonged to Pacific Helicopters and they were practicing take offs and landings when the accident happened.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...php?psid=cNPlV

Last edited by nomorehelosforme; 16th Jul 2019 at 14:32. Reason: add link
nomorehelosforme is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2019, 11:51
  #2 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,537
Received 219 Likes on 133 Posts
https://abc7news.com/2-people-injure...s-say/5397659/
treadigraph is online now  
Old 16th Jul 2019, 12:13
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Brantisvogan
Posts: 1,033
Received 57 Likes on 37 Posts
It is surprising, from such a mundane exercise, someone can end up dead.
If you compare that to the crashworthiness of a Cabri, the Robbie leaves much to be desired.

Last edited by Bell_ringer; 16th Jul 2019 at 12:18. Reason: typos
Bell_ringer is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2019, 13:08
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 10,289
Received 608 Likes on 266 Posts
Having been in a rollover incident many years ago in a R22, I can vouch for the fact that it is easy to smack your head during such an accident, something that could easily prove fatal and is not unique to robbies.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2019, 13:09
  #5 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London/Atlanta
Posts: 444
Received 13 Likes on 10 Posts
The statistics in the article state that during the period from 2006-2016, R44's averaged 1.6 deadly accidents per 100,000 hours flown, a rate nearly 50% greater than any of the other 12 most common civilian models tracked by the FAA.
nomorehelosforme is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2019, 14:10
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by nomorehelosforme
The statistics in the article state that during the period from 2006-2016, R44's averaged 1.6 deadly accidents per 100,000 hours flown, a rate nearly 50% greater than any of the other 12 most common civilian models tracked by the FAA.
Not seeing any stat's in that article???
aa777888 is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2019, 14:21
  #7 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London/Atlanta
Posts: 444
Received 13 Likes on 10 Posts
The stats were in the San Francisco Chronicle article with a link to an LA Times article showing a graph and more info, currently can't post a link, please post if you look it up.

The article is fairly extensive and would be of interest to many on here, one of the firsts comments would be that of the 12 aircraft compared the one missing is the Cabri??
nomorehelosforme is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2019, 14:30
  #8 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: London/Atlanta
Posts: 444
Received 13 Likes on 10 Posts
Here we go.

https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-...n-helicopters/
nomorehelosforme is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2019, 15:15
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Brantisvogan
Posts: 1,033
Received 57 Likes on 37 Posts
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Having been in a rollover incident many years ago in a R22, I can vouch for the fact that it is easy to smack your head during such an accident, something that could easily prove fatal and is not unique to robbies.
Of course, though a head trauma like that often proves fatal after the event and not at time of impact.
There seems to be fairly significant damage to the instructor side of the cockpit, while the rest of the aircraft seems to be in fairly good condition, hence the comment.
The Cabri as an example has had it's fair share of accidents in quote/unquote the landing phase and the cockpit remained in good condition. Different architecture and design philosophies but given the choice I know which one I would choose.

From the stats quoted further up, it would seem the ideal training aircraft is a 206, confirms what everyone already knows.
Bell_ringer is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2019, 15:34
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Top of the World
Posts: 2,191
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes on 25 Posts
Danger

Stats...Shmats; wear a fvkin' Helmet & Your chance of survival is greatly increased...............nuff said!

Would You wear a Helmet riding a Motorbike? well a Helicopter is 100 times more dangerous! Don the BoneDome & live to tell the tale!

Happy landings
Vertical Freedom is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2019, 15:41
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by nomorehelosforme
I was able to fact-check the 42 fatals in 5 minutes, but I continue to fail to find any source of fleet or model operating hours data. Does anyone know where I can obtain that?
aa777888 is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2019, 19:10
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Earth
Posts: 694
Received 14 Likes on 9 Posts
Originally Posted by aa777888
I was able to fact-check the 42 fatals in 5 minutes, but I continue to fail to find any source of fleet or model operating hours data. Does anyone know where I can obtain that?
The FAA data is from the General Aviation Survey and was only obtained via a FOIA request by the LA Times.

https://github.com/datadesk/helicopt...notebook.ipynb

The FAA's General Aviation and Part 135 Activity Survey
In response to a public records request made by The Times, the FAA provided a decade of its annual estimates about the activity of America's most common helicopter models. This data is not published online. The records provided to The Times were manually input into a spreadsheet and standardized using the same crosswalk as the NTSB data.

The tidy-faa notebook filters the FAA data down to population counts and flight-hour estimates for models that have appeared in all ten years of survey data.
Substituting Robinson's flight hours estimate
In an email to The Times, Robinson Helicopter Company President Kurt Robinson said he believed the FAA survey underestimates the R44's flight hours. He wrote:

Please note, the fatal accident rate of 1.61per 100k flight hours used to compare the R44 with other model helicopters from 2006 to 2016 does not reflect the actual usage rate of the R44 helicopter. Your estimated flight hours are based on the FAA General Aviation Survey, which is a voluntary survey and more representative of larger commercial operators, not the U.S. helicopter industry as a whole. Robinson’s own calculations, based on R44 production, overhaul records, and time-in-service reports, conservatively estimate total flight hours to be 3,260,787 hours, 38% more than the FAA estimate.

SansAnhedral is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2019, 21:29
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The FAA data is from the General Aviation Survey and was only obtained via a FOIA request by the LA Times.

https://github.com/datadesk/helicopt...notebook.ipynb
Excellent link, SansAnhedral, thank you!

The FAA's General Aviation and Part 135 Activity Survey: In response to a public records request made by The Times, the FAA provided a decade of its annual estimates about the activity of America's most common helicopter models. This data is not published online.
Ah, this explains why the data is so hard to get. I actually called the FAA, but no joy. I should have done a FOIA request!

In an email to The Times, Robinson Helicopter Company President Kurt Robinson said he believed the FAA survey underestimates the R44's flight hours. He wrote:
Please note, the fatal accident rate of 1.61per 100k flight hours used to compare the R44 with other model helicopters from 2006 to 2016 does not reflect the actual usage rate of the R44 helicopter. Your estimated flight hours are based on the FAA General Aviation Survey, which is a voluntary survey and more representative of larger commercial operators, not the U.S. helicopter industry as a whole. Robinson’s own calculations, based on R44 production, overhaul records, and time-in-service reports, conservatively estimate total flight hours to be 3,260,787 hours, 38% more than the FAA estimate.
I find this totally believable. I'm one of the many operators who gets that survey and can't be bothered to complete and return it.

That still puts the R44 at the top of the list at 1.16/100K, but not so dramatically.
aa777888 is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2019, 03:47
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Vancouver,WA.
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Appears rotor system had low/no power through it...
Max Power 3503e is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2019, 05:59
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Brantisvogan
Posts: 1,033
Received 57 Likes on 37 Posts
Originally Posted by aa777888
Excellent link, SansAnhedral, thank you!
That still puts the R44 at the top of the list at 1.16/100K, but not so dramatically.
You're making the assumption that the stats are accurate for all other types, it is safe to assume that like any survey, there is broadly a margin for error.
Bell_ringer is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2019, 06:35
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK/OZ
Posts: 1,886
Received 7 Likes on 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Vertical Freedom
Stats...Shmats; wear a fvkin' Helmet & Your chance of survival is greatly increased...............nuff said!

Would You wear a Helmet riding a Motorbike? well a Helicopter is 100 times more dangerous! Don the BoneDome & live to tell the tale!

Happy landings
This.

Now that there are fewer instances of post crash fires in R44s, we should take note of injuries suffered by survivors.
Having worn a helmet in back seat on filming jobs in r44 news, there is not much headroom left. Front seats a little better.

There are few light helicopters that have impact absorbing material around tops of doors.

Are helmets for learner drivers and their instructors such an imposition?

Mjb
mickjoebill is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2019, 09:03
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Inside the Industry
Posts: 876
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"They were practicing hovering, something that's unique to helicopters". I can see why this guy is a Manager.


industry insider is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2019, 11:03
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Top of the World
Posts: 2,191
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes on 25 Posts
Devil

Originally Posted by mickjoebill


This.

Now that there are fewer instances of post crash fires in R44s, we should take note of injuries suffered by survivors.
Having worn a helmet in back seat on filming jobs in r44 news, there is not much headroom left. Front seats a little better.

There are few light helicopters that have impact absorbing material around tops of doors.

Are helmets for learner drivers and their instructors such an imposition?

Mjb

Hey MJB......I wouldn't have thought so....I'd feel naked flying without a Helmet

Happy landings

VF
Vertical Freedom is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2019, 11:17
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Brantisvogan
Posts: 1,033
Received 57 Likes on 37 Posts
Originally Posted by Vertical Freedom
Hey MJB......I wouldn't have thought so....I'd feel naked flying without a Helmet
Hey VF, flying in your environment I'm surprised you don't use two
It's difficult for students in the private world to justify the costs on day one nor to necessarily understand the risks.
Lowly paid instructors are also thinking twice about what it costs.
In their wildest dreams I doubt anyone could expect this outcome from hover exercises.
Bell_ringer is offline  
Old 17th Jul 2019, 14:20
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Top of the World
Posts: 2,191
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes on 25 Posts
Devil Live long enough to tell the tale; wear Your seat-belt & a helmet

Originally Posted by Bell_ringer
Hey VF, flying in your environment I'm surprised you don't use two
It's difficult for students in the private world to justify the costs on day one nor to necessarily understand the risks.
Lowly paid instructors are also thinking twice about what it costs.
In their wildest dreams I doubt anyone could expect this outcome from hover exercises.
Hey BR....what one for the little head? might prove awkward to dance on them pedals Hmmm students can afford a $100,000 course but not a Helmet, sure doesn't make a whole bunch of sense to me! Today's instructors should know better & schools should leading the charge! When I trained Helmets where like Rocking Horse doodoo, no one wore them except the military & a few rare mustering lads! with today's wisdom of hindsight it should be mandatory kit, like seat-belts & radios, in my humble opinion...............

Happy landings
Vertical Freedom is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.