AW139 Crash in Bahamas - 7 Killed
Originally Posted by [email protected]
they would still have had to hand fly the aircraft for the departure though - something the PF singularly failed to do. The push to 10 degrees nose down at TDP could have been disorientating in the dark too.
TT
All true, but the first thing I was taught when flying instruments, was trust your instruments! Those purple lines would have almost certainly saved this crew and GLBAL.
I think, nitpicking aside, we can all agree it was a very avoidable accident in which two pilot's professional standards were found wanting.
There's a lot of discussions going on about this particular accident. But it seems until they can figure a way to train for the "complete the mission" scenarios, we'll still lose aircraft to this situation regardless of the competency of the crews.
So the question remains, what would you say/do when the boss calls late at night and states his daughter and her friends are gravely ill and he needs you to come get them ASAP?
So the question remains, what would you say/do when the boss calls late at night and states his daughter and her friends are gravely ill and he needs you to come get them ASAP?
Make a proper plan and fly the plan.
Do not assume it will all be alright and don't do it unless it is something you have been properly trained for.
If it is a medical emergency, call the appropriate authorities.
Do not assume it will all be alright and don't do it unless it is something you have been properly trained for.
If it is a medical emergency, call the appropriate authorities.
There's a lot of discussions going on about this particular accident. But it seems until they can figure a way to train for the "complete the mission" scenarios, we'll still lose aircraft to this situation regardless of the competency of the crews.
So the question remains, what would you say/do when the boss calls late at night and states his daughter and her friends are gravely ill and he needs you to come get them ASAP?
So the question remains, what would you say/do when the boss calls late at night and states his daughter and her friends are gravely ill and he needs you to come get them ASAP?
I don't know how we got the entire VCR transcript, it is not a normal procedure????
You just read the first leg and understand they should have never been there. And the guy on the left seat who was giving advises during the first leg totally disappear during the most important take-off procedure ????
Why, flying above water at night, anybody would start a descent from 2000 ft 25 NM out???? many guys crashed doing that....
There is a big problem with the fact that an owner buy an aircraft, hire somebody to fly it, but has no clue what this guy is really able to do. We see so many accident like that, there is serious training/knowledge problem.
How an owner is able to trust his pilot anymore?
You just read the first leg and understand they should have never been there. And the guy on the left seat who was giving advises during the first leg totally disappear during the most important take-off procedure ????
Why, flying above water at night, anybody would start a descent from 2000 ft 25 NM out???? many guys crashed doing that....
There is a big problem with the fact that an owner buy an aircraft, hire somebody to fly it, but has no clue what this guy is really able to do. We see so many accident like that, there is serious training/knowledge problem.
How an owner is able to trust his pilot anymore?
The EMS and OS roles I’ve flown in require regular assessments (often in the SIM). For example every OS pilot conducts night deck TO’s with one engine failing on rotation. If they can’t conduct it safely and professionally as both PF and PM, they wouldn’t be going back to work. The pilots that failed to do the job even remotely safely or proficiently were, I assume, appropriately licensed, experienced, and current.
What could the owner have done to discover or rectify their total lack of proficiency?
Maybe I wear rose tinted glasses but why would a customer go elsewhere for training if you fail one of their pilots?
If a training organisation is not failing some pilots I would be questioning this before handing over the cash, not the other way round.
If a training organisation is not failing some pilots I would be questioning this before handing over the cash, not the other way round.
Because when you fail a pilot it throws the customer's crew roster into disarray, and they don't see any value in a $25K course if the pilot scores a fail at the end of it. They just want the certificate, put a tick in the box, sign their logbook and be done with it. They will go to the training organization that makes that easiest for them. I've even seen company training managers skip observing sim sessions with their pilots because they were more interested in chasing the local floosies. That is the reality of the business, unfortunately.
Nescafe I think it's a fair comment. Having flown a fair few black hole approaches and departures it's common practice to not nose over to aggressively on a vertical departure. I have not flown the 139 so can't say if it's right for that airframe but HEMS type operations require considerations out of the box.
It might take you outside of PC1 parameters but it's about risk management. On this one at least I think it's pretty clear the risk of CFIT was more than the risk of engine failure. Large changes in attitude trying to maintain PC profiles is definitely a good way to start disoriention.
Reading the transcript I had to check a couple of times to work out when they lifted off! I do wonder if because it was a medical evacuation that the crew acted with haste. It doesn't matter how urgent the flight is we always complete checks and brief etc. 3 minutes for pre takeoffs including departure brief would have made zero difference in the outcome of the patients they were picking up. Unfortunately it is one of the downsides for pilots inexperienced in medical evacuations. There is often a self imposed haste that isn't required. Having the boss in the back surely doesn't help that.
Last edited by SLFMS; 26th Aug 2020 at 09:29.
The profile requires an input to achieve a 10° nose down attitude in 1 second, held for 1 second and then returned to a level attitude until 40kts.
If you fly it as it’s designed, it gets you accelerating and climbing away from the ground. The Cat A mode, if selected, will superimpose guide bars onto the power indicator and AI to show you what you need to do and when, it’s not hard to follow. As I mentioned previously, I’d lay a large bet that these guys didn’t know either the profile or the aircraft’s ability to help them out.
If you fly it as it’s designed, it gets you accelerating and climbing away from the ground. The Cat A mode, if selected, will superimpose guide bars onto the power indicator and AI to show you what you need to do and when, it’s not hard to follow. As I mentioned previously, I’d lay a large bet that these guys didn’t know either the profile or the aircraft’s ability to help them out.
Nescafe - the problem is that PC1/CatA profile is designed for VMC including, I suspect, a well lit helipad if at night.
They had no cultural lighting or assistance other than the landing lamp and if that is your only source of visual reference, pushing the nose down 10 degrees IS going to be very disorientating.
They should have been capable of a vertical climb followed by a gentle acceleration to get to Vmini whilst maintaining the climb.
They had no cultural lighting or assistance other than the landing lamp and if that is your only source of visual reference, pushing the nose down 10 degrees IS going to be very disorientating.
They should have been capable of a vertical climb followed by a gentle acceleration to get to Vmini whilst maintaining the climb.
10 degrees nose down from a 7 degree nose up hover is the issue. 17 degrees of rotation on a black night can be a problem if not ready and briefed for it. Having a good P2 monitoring helps. I agree that sometimes deviation from the profile is required provided you can justify that. Don’t forget 5 degrees nose up in a 139 gives a (slow) accelerative attitude. Nose on the horizon would have been a fair attitude for this night giving a half decent acceleration and smaller attitude change.
pushing the nose down 10 degrees IS going to be very disorientating.
As I said before, trust your instruments.
As I said before, trust your instruments.
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It appears there were no checklist items or approach or departure briefs done on the entire flight?
Night IMC + black hole app and departure?
I expected more from a former RAF pilot, even if he was fixed wing. Tragic.
Night IMC + black hole app and departure?
I expected more from a former RAF pilot, even if he was fixed wing. Tragic.
It’s all very well discussing performance profiles but you need to know what they are to execute them. From the looks of it they didn’t.
PC1 profiles are quite stringent on what is required in terms of pad/runway size, references, lighting, WAT etc. We sometimes can get very caught up in the ‘rules’ of aviation but as Crab and others have mentioned above, just fly the aircraft! Simple understanding of aircraft characteristics would get you through. Trim the aircraft for a nice hover, pull enough power to get a nice climb going, rotate at a sensible height to an attitude you know will accelerate (the horizon) and when at Vy trim to remain at that speed for the climb. I suspect too much haste to introduce automation to fill in for a lack of manual flying confidence in a unfamiliar situation.
LZ
PC1 profiles are quite stringent on what is required in terms of pad/runway size, references, lighting, WAT etc. We sometimes can get very caught up in the ‘rules’ of aviation but as Crab and others have mentioned above, just fly the aircraft! Simple understanding of aircraft characteristics would get you through. Trim the aircraft for a nice hover, pull enough power to get a nice climb going, rotate at a sensible height to an attitude you know will accelerate (the horizon) and when at Vy trim to remain at that speed for the climb. I suspect too much haste to introduce automation to fill in for a lack of manual flying confidence in a unfamiliar situation.
LZ