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AW139 Crash in Bahamas - 7 Killed

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AW139 Crash in Bahamas - 7 Killed

Old 28th Aug 2020, 13:51
  #541 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
But in order to fly a vertical helipad departure on instruments, you would have to sit left wing low and nose up (hover attitude) and maintain that until TDP (or you won't go vertical) - that is an IF take off in all but name.
Not sure if that's aimed at me? I fully agree - I just disagree that all 139 (or any type) vertical profiles should be done on instruments in day VFR.
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 15:37
  #542 (permalink)  
 
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I just disagree that all 139 (or any type) vertical profiles should be done on instruments in day VFR
Agreed
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 15:42
  #543 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sycamore View Post
For those interested if you read Document #22,P5,FIG 3 ,YAW PEDAL input,then go to P17,,paragraph starts"Figure13 shows......",and read the interpretation of the NTSB Performance specialist......
Missed that the first time - Isn't the AW139 rotor system anti-clockwise? So surely power pedal is left pedal?
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 15:59
  #544 (permalink)  
 
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For those interested if you read Document #22,P5,FIG 3 ,YAW PEDAL input,then go to P17,,paragraph starts"Figure13 shows......",and read the interpretation of the NTSB Performance specialist......
so either the specialist doesn't know which way round the rotor turns or has got his lefts and rights mixed up.
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Old 28th Aug 2020, 17:04
  #545 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
so either the specialist doesn't know which way round the rotor turns or has got his lefts and rights mixed up.
It would appear the labelling on the charts suggest right pedal was applied, so it's not a just the one typo, which is odd. Maybe they just read the FDR data backwards, but still not a mistake I'd expect to find in an NTSB report.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 00:27
  #546 (permalink)  
 
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What Vaibronco said is right !
We do all our vertical take-off, it does not matter how high you have to climb, the same way, day or night.
If you do that all time, you just know what you gone see and what the aircraft is doing. 10 degrees nose down 1 second, level off, you know that the airspeed won't show up until you reach 40, with VTOSS, 5 degrees nose up to reach Vy.
We don't have to guess what to do, it is always the same. Now, at night, it is crucial to follow your instrument, there is no other way. We only have NVG's for a 1 1/2 year, I flew 20 years without NVG's doing the same thing with all kind of weather and sites.
Is it easy ? no, it is not and sometimes you really have to concentrate and make sure the guy beside you makes the right calls and check you. The only thing the NVG brings on black hole is to see your reject area, when you rotate, you only look and follow your instruments.
Now, if you never do those profile and try to do it on a black hole, that's a different story, that's gone be difficult to go from 7 degrees nose up to -10 and you will have many risk of being disoriented.
They could have use the Transition up, but I am sure they never even it tried before, you can only do it on a flat surface, from hover, It is a little bit strange because the aircraft vibrate, move slowly initially until you reach enough speed to stabilize everything, departing above water using TU can look scary.
At the end of the day, it is very difficult to say and accept that you are not good enough or not trained enough to do a job, especially on VIP jobs. The only guys who could tell you is your partner (if he understand the situation) and the training guys.
But, it is another problem, we go to CAE and now flight Safety. Who is gone say, " We think you don't have the right level for the job you do". Nobody !!! Most of them don't even understand what we do. " Ho you Canadians, you do all those black hole profiles, it is crazy".Yes, it is but, it is part of the job and we tried over those years to improve those profiles to make them better. Now, with NVG's, we don't have problem to go anywhere as before, but the take-off is still something to manage properly.
All guys who did their training knew what problems those guys had and they should have react. Even you can't know what a customer is gone do with his aircraft, the minimum should focused on aircraft knowledge and management. They should leave the sim with a perfect knowledge of FMS, automation and crew management. Using automation without a perfect knowledge of is happening is a killer, the confusion you get is the best way to have a major mishap.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 02:25
  #547 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arcal76 View Post
...They should leave the sim with a perfect knowledge of FMS, automation and crew management..
They should arrive at the sim with a perfect knowledge, etc. The number of hours I've wasted teaching recurrent pilots in sims the basic stuff of what button to push and when, of systems knowledge, etc The sim is for honing technique, achieving finesse, doing stuff that you can't do in the real aircraft without risk of breaking it. It is not for teaching the basics.
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Old 1st Sep 2020, 03:37
  #548 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
They should arrive at the sim with a perfect knowledge, etc. The number of hours I've wasted teaching recurrent pilots in sims the basic stuff of what button to push and when, of systems knowledge, etc The sim is for honing technique, achieving finesse, doing stuff that you can't do in the real aircraft without risk of breaking it. It is not for teaching the basics.
There’s nothing like spending time in a sim that costs $1000s per hour, teaching someone something that ought to have been mastered in the aircraft in the hangar on external power.
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Old 2nd Sep 2020, 09:37
  #549 (permalink)  
 
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What Vaibronco said is right !
We do all our vertical take-off, it does not matter how high you have to climb, the same way, day or night.
If you do that all time, you just know what you gone see and what the aircraft is doing. 10 degrees nose down 1 second, level off, you know that the airspeed won't show up until you reach 40, with VTOSS, 5 degrees nose up to reach Vy.
We don't have to guess what to do, it is always the same.
I never said "guess" or use different profiles, I said use the visual references in daytime (when they exist) and use instruments at night, or in degraded day visual conditions. Are you saying you can't set 10 degrees nose down, or zero pitch by looking out the window?
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