NYC helicopter crash 10th June 2019
Capable people can do silly things under extreme stress, its a fault of the human condition, something everyone learns about but chooses to ignore.
You will never know what went on in that cockpit, until such a time that all light aircraft capture telemetry data for analysis.
The finer details of what went on are mostly irrelevant, the outcome was set once the decision to leave the pad was made.
if you choose to operate in marginal conditions under the hopes that superior skills and aircraft capability will save the day, then accidents like this will continue to happen.
There is a general belief that helicopters are immune to weather, after all you can always just turnaround or land. That only works if you make the call early enough.
Staying on the pad and paying those parking fees would have been far less costly.
You will never know what went on in that cockpit, until such a time that all light aircraft capture telemetry data for analysis.
The finer details of what went on are mostly irrelevant, the outcome was set once the decision to leave the pad was made.
if you choose to operate in marginal conditions under the hopes that superior skills and aircraft capability will save the day, then accidents like this will continue to happen.
There is a general belief that helicopters are immune to weather, after all you can always just turnaround or land. That only works if you make the call early enough.
Staying on the pad and paying those parking fees would have been far less costly.
Last edited by Bell_ringer; 6th Jul 2019 at 10:39.
500/1SM is legal VFR....and adequate for day visual flight in a helicopter.
As said by others....stay visual, follow the river or a highway that keeps you oriented and ;provides visual references to control the helicopter.
The rub is when the weather drops below that.....then what do you do is key.
As said by others....stay visual, follow the river or a highway that keeps you oriented and ;provides visual references to control the helicopter.
The rub is when the weather drops below that.....then what do you do is key.
I didn't say it wasn't legal - it wouldn't be in UK - just that it is not good as it leaves you few options other than to descend, often into an obstacle-rich environment around built-up areas..
We all know that you don't get uniform conditions in poor weather - best to assume the 500' and 2miles is the best you are likely to see rather than the worst and plan accordingly.
We all know that you don't get uniform conditions in poor weather - best to assume the 500' and 2miles is the best you are likely to see rather than the worst and plan accordingly.
That's what you call a perfect day? You guys sure do have a cavalier attitude about the weather.
500ft and 2000m isn't tanning at the beach weather, but it shouldn't get you killed if the human computer is operating correctly.
Operating in a narrow urban corridor doesn't leave much room for error or manoeuvring if suddenly you find yourself in decreasing minima or when the bucket of superior skills runs empty.
I suspect H&H was being a bit tongue in cheek.
500ft and 2000m isn't tanning at the beach weather, but it shouldn't get you killed if the human computer is operating correctly.
Operating in a narrow urban corridor doesn't leave much room for error or manoeuvring if suddenly you find yourself in decreasing minima or when the bucket of superior skills runs empty.
500ft and 2000m isn't tanning at the beach weather, but it shouldn't get you killed if the human computer is operating correctly.
Operating in a narrow urban corridor doesn't leave much room for error or manoeuvring if suddenly you find yourself in decreasing minima or when the bucket of superior skills runs empty.
What is ok for one environment, may not be for another.
Folks....deal with facts please.
The flight was done in the USA and FAA Rules apply....not CAA Rules as apply in the UK.
Take a minute and google "US FAR Part 91, VFR Flight Rules"......read what it says.
Then google to find a VFR Sectional Map for the NYC area and study the airspace depictions for the intended flight.
That will give you a basis to begin discussing the "what if's" that pertain to this tragedy.
I have flown many a mile in ugly weather....VFR....in the USA and the UK and understand the Rules in both places.
Do you?
Would I have departed from the heliport as did this poor fellow....probably not due to the fact it was NYC alone.
Whenever I flew anywhere in that region....I tried to avoid places like NYC, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Washington DC, Boston....etc.
Matter of fact....I refuse to drive in those places unless it is to pass through on an Interstate Highway and then I carefully choose my route and time of travel or just don't go.
I did my minimum VFR flying (I am loathe to call it Rudscunning due to the visceral reaction from some. here who get all crazy to hear that term used.....).
What I did do was pick my time, place, route, and weather to do it in.
It can be done safely, legally, and without un-due risk to self or others....but you must be thinking about what you are doing...and have a Plan B...C...D.....before you light off the engine.
Plan B is upon encountering deteriorating or unforeseen weather conditions....is to land out or turn around and get back to better weather....which ever is safest and quickest.
Know your limits...and do not hesitate to say "No!" or knock it off when it gets down to your limits.
Speed is critical....visibility determines speed and height....always go slow enough to avoid obstacles and maintain solid contact with the ground.
If you find yourself getting nervous or anxious....you just passed your "limit".....and that means you delayed your decision too long.
The flight was done in the USA and FAA Rules apply....not CAA Rules as apply in the UK.
Take a minute and google "US FAR Part 91, VFR Flight Rules"......read what it says.
Then google to find a VFR Sectional Map for the NYC area and study the airspace depictions for the intended flight.
That will give you a basis to begin discussing the "what if's" that pertain to this tragedy.
I have flown many a mile in ugly weather....VFR....in the USA and the UK and understand the Rules in both places.
Do you?
Would I have departed from the heliport as did this poor fellow....probably not due to the fact it was NYC alone.
Whenever I flew anywhere in that region....I tried to avoid places like NYC, New Jersey, Philadelphia, Washington DC, Boston....etc.
Matter of fact....I refuse to drive in those places unless it is to pass through on an Interstate Highway and then I carefully choose my route and time of travel or just don't go.
I did my minimum VFR flying (I am loathe to call it Rudscunning due to the visceral reaction from some. here who get all crazy to hear that term used.....).
What I did do was pick my time, place, route, and weather to do it in.
It can be done safely, legally, and without un-due risk to self or others....but you must be thinking about what you are doing...and have a Plan B...C...D.....before you light off the engine.
Plan B is upon encountering deteriorating or unforeseen weather conditions....is to land out or turn around and get back to better weather....which ever is safest and quickest.
Know your limits...and do not hesitate to say "No!" or knock it off when it gets down to your limits.
Speed is critical....visibility determines speed and height....always go slow enough to avoid obstacles and maintain solid contact with the ground.
If you find yourself getting nervous or anxious....you just passed your "limit".....and that means you delayed your decision too long.
Some of us fly in this weather all day long...our business and people's homes depend on it. It is good weather under a certain set of parameters, do not blindly say that we are "cavalier". I would not expect a private pilot or a recently certified commercial pilot to be flying in this, but with the correct training, it is not a problem.
Lots of fairy tales going around eh, Shy.....aren't you a bit old to believe in them?
Some of us fly in this weather all day long...our business and people's homes depend on it. It is good weather under a certain set of parameters, do not blindly say that we are "cavalier". I would not expect a private pilot or a recently certified commercial pilot to be flying in this, but with the correct training, it is not a problem.
,...'cause yeah, that's what we're talking about here
Robbiee,
You miss the point altogether.....it is not your job that depends upon it....but rather your life and that of your passengers.
Doing something safely and within the limits set forth by your OpSpecs, FAR's, and Company SOP's does not in any way suggest being "cavalier".
I have refused to fly in weather that met the letter of the law and rule...because it exceeded my personal limits.
I am sure all professional pilots with any experience in the business have done that....as they well should.
You miss the point altogether.....it is not your job that depends upon it....but rather your life and that of your passengers.
Doing something safely and within the limits set forth by your OpSpecs, FAR's, and Company SOP's does not in any way suggest being "cavalier".
I have refused to fly in weather that met the letter of the law and rule...because it exceeded my personal limits.
I am sure all professional pilots with any experience in the business have done that....as they well should.
Robbiee,
You miss the point altogether.....it is not your job that depends upon it....but rather your life and that of your passengers.
Doing something safely and within the limits set forth by your OpSpecs, FAR's, and Company SOP's does not in any way suggest being "cavalier".
I have refused to fly in weather that met the letter of the law and rule...because it exceeded my personal limits.
I am sure all professional pilots with any experience in the business have done that....as they well should.
You miss the point altogether.....it is not your job that depends upon it....but rather your life and that of your passengers.
Doing something safely and within the limits set forth by your OpSpecs, FAR's, and Company SOP's does not in any way suggest being "cavalier".
I have refused to fly in weather that met the letter of the law and rule...because it exceeded my personal limits.
I am sure all professional pilots with any experience in the business have done that....as they well should.
I keep wondering what may have contributed to the situation, for example could the cockpit have fogged up or was it just the results of having exceeded personal limits?
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CIty girls are usually impressed by helicopters , as they become ex wives generally less so. One has to wonder if an amorous or some other kind of bravado fog contributed to this event.
Another angle being; he was as comfortable with IMC and bad weather as the deceased Russian fellow featured on YouTube smoking a cigarette and covering the AI with a sticky note.
The weather is bad but not unworkable. A perfect cover for "stunting". I am sure the coffee in the pilots lounge was strong but I have trouble believing it was completely panic inducing to the point of losing all ability to tell the difference between the river and surrounding built up area. Being trapped in featureless foothills with a low ceiling between passes is another story.
Unconsciousness typically occurs before a vfr rated pilot decides to climb back into IMC conditions after soiling himself from having the luck to survive the first encounter. Landing in the low rise district might have its share of questions and paperwork, but to find oneself again at the top of the high rise district? I question if the weather was as formidable mental barrier as we'd like to believe for this pilot.
Another angle being; he was as comfortable with IMC and bad weather as the deceased Russian fellow featured on YouTube smoking a cigarette and covering the AI with a sticky note.
The weather is bad but not unworkable. A perfect cover for "stunting". I am sure the coffee in the pilots lounge was strong but I have trouble believing it was completely panic inducing to the point of losing all ability to tell the difference between the river and surrounding built up area. Being trapped in featureless foothills with a low ceiling between passes is another story.
Unconsciousness typically occurs before a vfr rated pilot decides to climb back into IMC conditions after soiling himself from having the luck to survive the first encounter. Landing in the low rise district might have its share of questions and paperwork, but to find oneself again at the top of the high rise district? I question if the weather was as formidable mental barrier as we'd like to believe for this pilot.
Robbiee , Gordy is anything but cavalier, and if properly trained, flying in **** weather isn't a big deal, but you HAVE TO respect when to stop, when to turn around and when to put down safely, if you don't then obviously it is dangerous.
Robbiee , Gordy is anything but cavalier, and if properly trained, flying in **** weather isn't a big deal, but you HAVE TO respect when to stop, when to turn around and when to put down safely, if you don't then obviously it is dangerous.
But then I'm closer to that guy in experience, so I can relate, which seems to be an issue here from time to time. Its like these high time guys can't seperate what they do, and their experience from lower time pilots who didn't take the same path to becoming a pilot as they did.
Yeah, to a guy who flies in low visibility and low ceilings all the time this accident makes no sense, so they come on here projecting this cavalier attitude about the weather because they can't seem to get that to this guy, flying in those conditions was not normal. Its an empathy problem here.
He wasn't going out to fight a fire. He wasn't a Coast Guard pilot headed into a hurricane to rescue a boater. He was just a guy who dropped off a passenger, then wanted to get home. If you look at it from his point of view, then getting disoriented looks perfectly plausible.
He's sitting around waiting for it to get better. After a couple hours finds what he thinks is a 20 min window he can use to get home. He jumps in and takes off, but shortly thereafter it gets worse and he radios he wants to come back. Then he radios he doesn't know where he is. From my experience he got disoriented. Sure, he could have had a stroke right after takeoff, **** does happen, but if that had been me in that cockpit, I'd be dead too.
Last edited by Robbiee; 7th Jul 2019 at 19:25.
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Man, this thread is hopeless...like a dog chasing its tail. Subject pilot was not a low-time helicopter pilot (2800+ hrs). He was a professional corporate pilot being paid to fly a sophisticated, twin-engine aircraft. He had operated out of 6N5 FOR YEARS, he was a NY resident, and practically speaking he was flying in his "back yard". The wx was 500 and 1 but a couple minutes after takeoff he doesn't know where he is.
I'm done here.
I'm done here.
We Dinosaurs were young'uns at some point in our many years of existence.....we got old through a fair amount of luck, some skill, and being able to know when to sit in a safe place, drink coffee, and whine about everything under the Sun.
Perhaps, even....we may have also learned from others who were ahead of us on the path so that we did not have to trod in every muddy puddle to figure out how deep they were.
We ain't knocking you young folks....but we are trying to pass along some hard leaned lessons....some of which we were given free of charge....some we paid a Beer Tariff to obtain...and some we figured out all by ourselves usually scaring ourselves frightless in the process.
I always fiigured I could learn from everyone I flew with....or worked alongside.....and I did most times.
One cannot be a Master of all things in this flying game....but you can be very darn good at what you do.
That is. how you get old and cantankerous.....which beats not getting old.
Perhaps, even....we may have also learned from others who were ahead of us on the path so that we did not have to trod in every muddy puddle to figure out how deep they were.
We ain't knocking you young folks....but we are trying to pass along some hard leaned lessons....some of which we were given free of charge....some we paid a Beer Tariff to obtain...and some we figured out all by ourselves usually scaring ourselves frightless in the process.
I always fiigured I could learn from everyone I flew with....or worked alongside.....and I did most times.
One cannot be a Master of all things in this flying game....but you can be very darn good at what you do.
That is. how you get old and cantankerous.....which beats not getting old.