FAI into Clutha crash opens
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Thanks Sooty.
Disgusting behaviour in court as the 14 legal eagles present, plus their aides, drowned out the minute's silence and family statements. And then a hoohah over a daily tabloid getting hold of images from the CCTV.
Disgusting behaviour in court as the 14 legal eagles present, plus their aides, drowned out the minute's silence and family statements. And then a hoohah over a daily tabloid getting hold of images from the CCTV.
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I am really not sure what an enquiry of up to six months hope to achieve other than boosting the lawyers fees, The AAIB findings are clear. The relatives need closure, there claims in law are without question, and it would seem best that they have closure and financial settlement as soon as possible.
What is it about Britain, endless enquiries led by some retired judge, going on for months and years. A case in point, the Grenfell Tower, very obviously down to building standards/materials yet attempts to blame London Fire Brigade, who did there very best under the circumstances.
What is it about Britain, endless enquiries led by some retired judge, going on for months and years. A case in point, the Grenfell Tower, very obviously down to building standards/materials yet attempts to blame London Fire Brigade, who did there very best under the circumstances.
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anchorhold
The relatives DO need closure. This isn’t endless inquiries, this is THE inquiry. The AAIB report will be part of it. An inquest doesn’t just look at why the helicopter crashed. It looks at post crash responses, lessons to be learned and more importantly, how EACH and every victim died. It looks at many many things other than the accident report. In other words, it’s vital. So, apology accepted.
Now, why don’t we all listen to what is said over the next 6 months, see if we can learn anything new about what happened and let the families have the inquest that they deserve. It’s not all about compensation you know.........
The relatives DO need closure. This isn’t endless inquiries, this is THE inquiry. The AAIB report will be part of it. An inquest doesn’t just look at why the helicopter crashed. It looks at post crash responses, lessons to be learned and more importantly, how EACH and every victim died. It looks at many many things other than the accident report. In other words, it’s vital. So, apology accepted.
Now, why don’t we all listen to what is said over the next 6 months, see if we can learn anything new about what happened and let the families have the inquest that they deserve. It’s not all about compensation you know.........
The FAI is also vital as it is the first time families will have the opportunity to ask questions. And a FAI is not the same as an Inquiry like Grenfell. It is the equivalent of a Coroner's Inquest.
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Clutha round two
Is it me or does the industry outsiders ie the public understand what actually happened , but day two into the inquiry it’s so hard to read what the press is still publishing ! .
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It still worries me that we will never find out what actually happened, there are so many conflicting reports of the event that night.
For the families sake, I hope they get all of the answers they are looking for and nothing is covered up.
For the families sake, I hope they get all of the answers they are looking for and nothing is covered up.
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KNIEVEL - There are known facts. Such as the fuel remaining was located in the MAIN TANK and the SUPPLY tanks were all but empty. The Rotor RPM decayed beyond that what was recoverable.
The problem is how did these situations arise? There are known causes to get to these situation but we do not know what exactly occurred to deliver them. In my opinion, we will never know given that the helicopter did not have CVR/FDR.
Without the flight recorders major pieces of the puzzle are missing.
So not conflicting reports of what happened. What happened is relatively clear. The WHY is the bit that cannot be fully understood or answered.
I believe that as the inquiry progresses it will become clear to the board that without CVR/FDR data a complete understanding of why it happened will never be reached.
The problem is how did these situations arise? There are known causes to get to these situation but we do not know what exactly occurred to deliver them. In my opinion, we will never know given that the helicopter did not have CVR/FDR.
Without the flight recorders major pieces of the puzzle are missing.
So not conflicting reports of what happened. What happened is relatively clear. The WHY is the bit that cannot be fully understood or answered.
I believe that as the inquiry progresses it will become clear to the board that without CVR/FDR data a complete understanding of why it happened will never be reached.
To emphasise:
Remaining fuel was not available to the main tank. Engine(s) stopped as a consequence.
The Nr decayed below its recoverable limit. Pilot was therefore unable to control the landing.
Remaining fuel was not available to the main tank. Engine(s) stopped as a consequence.
The Nr decayed below its recoverable limit. Pilot was therefore unable to control the landing.
To correct the emphasis -
All the remaining fuel was in the main tank.
My theory is that the POLIS know something as has been eluded to before - whether it comes out in the inquiry will be the interesting part.
To emphasise:
Remaining fuel was not available from the main tank. Engine(s) stopped as a consequence.
The Nr decayed below its recoverable limit. Pilot was therefore unable to control the landing.
Remaining fuel was not available from the main tank. Engine(s) stopped as a consequence.
The Nr decayed below its recoverable limit. Pilot was therefore unable to control the landing.
My theory is that the POLIS know something as has been eluded to before - whether it comes out in the inquiry will be the interesting part.
Seems to me this will forever remain a mystery, in the absence of a CVR. It's beyond comprehension how an experienced and by all accounts excellent pilot could have (a) ignored multiple low fuel warnings (b) forgotten to turn the transfer pumps back on and then (c) when the inevitable happened, failed to enter autorotation, for which you'd expect him to be spring-loaded considering the fuel situation.
It makes me think of some classic rail accidents where the driver's actions are just beyond comprehension: Moorgate in 1975, or Grantham in 1906 (where the driver was seen calmly staring ahead, travelling at full speed into a low speed curve).
It makes me think of some classic rail accidents where the driver's actions are just beyond comprehension: Moorgate in 1975, or Grantham in 1906 (where the driver was seen calmly staring ahead, travelling at full speed into a low speed curve).
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n5296s, I agree.
RVDT, wise words. We have months of testimony to listen to. I think there COULD be a lot of information available to fill in the gaps from the AAIB report. There is no doubt with anyone as to WHAT happened, however I hope the families (and industry) can be educated further as to any reasons WHY it happened. I’m optimistic that Strathclyde Police have carried out a thorough unbiased investigation..........
RVDT, wise words. We have months of testimony to listen to. I think there COULD be a lot of information available to fill in the gaps from the AAIB report. There is no doubt with anyone as to WHAT happened, however I hope the families (and industry) can be educated further as to any reasons WHY it happened. I’m optimistic that Strathclyde Police have carried out a thorough unbiased investigation..........
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DrinkGirls, I think everyone would agree that the aaib report isn’t that far from the mark and the downloads much the same , can someone tell me what the ops procedure was at the time regarding fuelling Especially given the time of night and the very very limited locations to do at anytime of the day never mind that time of night, bottom half of page 17 and 18 to me answers a lot .
fill in the gaps from the AAIB report
From the BBC reports:
Perhaps the Airwave comms will come out in court...
Mr Cook, who was part of the team that prepared the AAIB report, told the court about the communication on board helicopter.He said it was the responsibility of the pilot to liaise with Air Traffic Control. Separately, the Police Scotland Airwave system was used for operational purposes.He told the hearing both means of communication were recorded.
That is the bit that I really want to hear. What were my colleagues saying their control room in the last minutes of that flight? Why had that flight been stretched to such a last few gasps of their endurance?.. The Strathclyde Unit had previously covered a fairly restricted area. Suddenly it was covering the whole of Scotland! So what pressures were now being put on that unit to succeed?
TF
TF
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Tiger fish. I understand your sentiments........but, majority of helicopters operations offer the opportunity to exploit your useable endurance. Try HOFO. You will spend majority of your flight time obsessed with your tank contents. Surely we cannot claim fuel management issues are not our fault cos we are under pressure. If that were the case FW and RW would be dropping out the sky every day.
DB, I think that you mis understand me! Firstly I was in direct control of a Police Air Unit for quite some time, so I do understand Police Air Ops. My comments fall under two main area's firstly to highlight the folly of expecting one aircraft to potentially cover the whole of Scotland! That single aircraft was fine and Adequate to cover its original patch - Strathclyde. but the whole of Scotland??? So I would look at the tasking of the Aircraft.
But more importantly I would be looking very closely at Police Control Room tapes. When a member of the Internal Investigations branch I seized such records very often and it is surprising what they can reveal! I would remind you of the tragic accident that befell the East Midlands Police twin Squirrel Aircraft that took off from an isolated base late one night and immediately ran into unseen low cloud. Disorientation followed and the aircraft crashed just outside its own base. BUT no - one knew that it had crashed until a badly injured crew member crawled back to the unit and used a phone there to call for assistance. As a result of that accident mandatory pre and post take off and landing transmissions had to be made to Police Control rooms. In addition police air units then started to speak to their control rooms more often ! So again I ask why was there no comment made in the AAIB report regarding the examination of the Airwave tapes? It is one of the first things that I as an investigator would have expected. It may well have been done, perhaps nothing was said by the Police Officers but I find that difficult to accept.
TF
But more importantly I would be looking very closely at Police Control Room tapes. When a member of the Internal Investigations branch I seized such records very often and it is surprising what they can reveal! I would remind you of the tragic accident that befell the East Midlands Police twin Squirrel Aircraft that took off from an isolated base late one night and immediately ran into unseen low cloud. Disorientation followed and the aircraft crashed just outside its own base. BUT no - one knew that it had crashed until a badly injured crew member crawled back to the unit and used a phone there to call for assistance. As a result of that accident mandatory pre and post take off and landing transmissions had to be made to Police Control rooms. In addition police air units then started to speak to their control rooms more often ! So again I ask why was there no comment made in the AAIB report regarding the examination of the Airwave tapes? It is one of the first things that I as an investigator would have expected. It may well have been done, perhaps nothing was said by the Police Officers but I find that difficult to accept.
TF
DB, I think that you mis understand me! Firstly I was in direct control of a Police Air Unit for quite some time, so I do understand Police Air Ops. My comments fall under two main area's firstly to highlight the folly of expecting one aircraft to potentially cover the whole of Scotland! That single aircraft was fine and Adequate to cover its original patch - Strathclyde. but the whole of Scotland??? So I would look at the tasking of the Aircraft.
But more importantly I would be looking very closely at Police Control Room tapes. When a member of the Internal Investigations branch I seized such records very often and it is surprising what they can reveal! I would remind you of the tragic accident that befell the East Midlands Police twin Squirrel Aircraft that took off from an isolated base late one night and immediately ran into unseen low cloud. Disorientation followed and the aircraft crashed just outside its own base. BUT no - one knew that it had crashed until a badly injured crew member crawled back to the unit and used a phone there to call for assistance. As a result of that accident mandatory pre and post take off and landing transmissions had to be made to Police Control rooms. In addition police air units then started to speak to their control rooms more often ! So again I ask why was there no comment made in the AAIB report regarding the examination of the Airwave tapes? It is one of the first things that I as an investigator would have expected. It may well have been done, perhaps nothing was said by the Police Officers but I find that difficult to accept.
TF
But more importantly I would be looking very closely at Police Control Room tapes. When a member of the Internal Investigations branch I seized such records very often and it is surprising what they can reveal! I would remind you of the tragic accident that befell the East Midlands Police twin Squirrel Aircraft that took off from an isolated base late one night and immediately ran into unseen low cloud. Disorientation followed and the aircraft crashed just outside its own base. BUT no - one knew that it had crashed until a badly injured crew member crawled back to the unit and used a phone there to call for assistance. As a result of that accident mandatory pre and post take off and landing transmissions had to be made to Police Control rooms. In addition police air units then started to speak to their control rooms more often ! So again I ask why was there no comment made in the AAIB report regarding the examination of the Airwave tapes? It is one of the first things that I as an investigator would have expected. It may well have been done, perhaps nothing was said by the Police Officers but I find that difficult to accept.
TF