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Black Hawk crash Tennessee Feb 2019

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Black Hawk crash Tennessee Feb 2019

Old 15th Mar 2019, 15:05
  #41 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 164
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
If we find out that it was a mechanical failure then they get a Pass....
Doesn't that set the bar kinda of low?
JimEli is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2019, 15:09
  #42 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 864
The promotion of scud-running is quite astonishing.
JimL is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2019, 15:54
  #43 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Posts: 658
Originally Posted by Bell_ringer View Post
The insurance company would probably think that those who haven't crashed are better, that's how the system works.
I'm not sure that's empirically true. I know a relatively low-time ag-pilot who hit a wire he knew was there and had been flying around all day. The FAA wanted him to take wire-avoidance training, but he said to them (words to the effect of), "Trust me, there's NOBODY who's more current on wire avoidance than me right now!"
It is easy to say an accident can happen to anyone, this much is true. However accidents only happen to some people not to everyone and there are various reasons for that most which have been documented in your preferred human performance manual.
Those that stick within what is permitted and choose to operate within their abilities tend to avoid accidents.
The trick is realising if you avoided one due to luck or discipline.
But again I fall back on the fact that all the rulebooks and manuals in the world can't cover every situation a pilot can get into. No amount of training (or even first-hand experience) can prepare a pilot for every circumstance he'll encounter "out there." Accident avoidance is sometimes just good dumb luck. Accident occurrence is sometimes just bad dumb luck. If it were solely clinical and scientific we'd never have any accidents because we'd all be well-trained, experienced and we'd all do it "by the book" and make the correct decisions all the time.. Obviously we don't.

One day I was trying to get the boss up to his hunting camp in his 206. The wx was bad enough when we took off, and got progressively worse as we went along. But we knew the weather at the camp was good, so it was just a matter of getting through this "little area of low stuff." Show of hands: How many of us have ever said/done that? Well it got REALLY bad. Slow-down-and-hover-up-the-road bad. Dry-mouth-butt-clenchingly bad. I'm-stupid-and-I-deserve-to-die bad. Holy-cow-I-hope-that-wasn't-an-FAA-guy-in-that-car-down-there bad. You get the idea. It was bad. But sometimes when you're really in the sh*t, you think it's better just to keep going. The boss and I knew the area, knew there weren't any antennas or powerlines along our path...just follow this road and we'll be into the river valley soon and...sure enough we crested a hill and suddenly it got a lot better and I was glad I hadn't turned around. Pressure? Yes, both self-induced and some from the boss. Could it have ended badly? Oh yeah. It is those times when I sit there thinking to myself, "Eleven-thousand hours, huh? Gee, what a super pilot you are...NOT!" I was the happy recipient of some good dumb luck that day.
FH1100 Pilot is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2019, 17:39
  #44 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 71
Posts: 16,313
JimL.... As long as the aircraft is operated within the Legal Limits of "Clear of Cloud" and at a speed that allows avoidance of terrain and obstacles...and is outside controlled airspace in daylight....and maintain a minimum visibility of one half statute mile Vis....is that "Scud Running"?

FAR Part 91 says that is legal......or do I misunderstand the Regulation?

We are flying helicopters are we not?

SASless is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2019, 18:05
  #45 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK and MALTA
Age: 56
Posts: 1,201
SAS, 1/2 Nm is around 800 metres. Clear of cloud with 800 Metres of vis, in sight of the surface at sensible speed with a reasonable driver is not what happens in these events. (almost identical limits in EASA Land).
I don't know what the exact wx was for the Blackhawk, but in the A109 we could all clearly see that it was not 800m and certainly not clear of cloud. He was in it. That's scud-running!
Not wanting to speak for JimL, but the only salient point to these circular arguments is, flying below the limits you state is bloody dangerous and should never happen. Where this always gets emotional is the old "Saving Lives" argument. However the number 1 rule of first aid is don't become a casualty yourself.
Like I have said so many times now, it does not matter whether we are wearing green, blue or pink. The ground is just as hard for everyone.
DOUBLE BOGEY is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2019, 18:22
  #46 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 71
Posts: 16,313
Our vis minimum is 1/2 Statute Mile..... and of course the problem is defining visibility from the Cockpit.....the weather (which determines visibility) is measured at ground level in a horizontal plane).... which is an altogether different perspective than the slant angle view we get while airborne.

How many of us actually measure by some means the actual distance we can see ahead?

Just how does one do that in a practical manner?

Is it fair to say....what we do is go by our personal comfort level to a great degree as we do not have a handy way of measuring distance using the Mark I Eyeball?

Also....Fog is a surface based weather phenomenon by definition thus is not "Cloud" which is not surface based weather.

When you operate at the very edge of the legal limit....the margin for error is very small.

All I was asking JimL was what his definition of "Scud Running" is.... as compared to flight within the legal limits.

Is there a minimum height we must fly in Uncontrolled Airspace (remembering the FAA does not specify a certain distance from persons and property on the ground as does the CAA)?

Was the Blackhawk Crew flying illegally on this cross country flight if they complied with the FAR's re Vis and Clear of Cloud right up until the final moments of the flight (assuming a deterioration in Vis or "ceiling" occurred that forced them to decide to land)?
SASless is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2019, 18:31
  #47 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Brantisvogan
Posts: 512
Originally Posted by FH1100 Pilot View Post
. Big deal, it happens.
It's a bigger deal when there are pax onboard and no one walks away.
Bell_ringer is offline  

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