Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Black Hawk crash Tennessee Feb 2019

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Black Hawk crash Tennessee Feb 2019

Old 11th Mar 2019, 16:16
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 71
Posts: 16,313
Could it be they just simply stuck the tail rotor into the trees as they tried to slow down when they got too fast for the visibility they had...and wound up where they did.

Big deal, it happens.
Errrrrrr.....yes....very big deal!

If nothing happened mechanically that caused the descent into the trees that destroyed the aircraft.....then in my view that is a "big deal" as someone has to pay for the loss of the aircraft and any revenue it might have produced.

It is a good thing the crew survived....now they can tell us what really happened.
​​​​​​​



SASless is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2019, 03:27
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hobe Sound, Florida
Posts: 699
Anyone know what sort of nav equipment they put in their 60?
JohnDixson is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2019, 04:44
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Posts: 658
SAS, there was a time when you had blocked or put me on "Ignore" or some such. While I am honored that you once again read my posts, I dearly wish you had kept ignoring them. You (still) seem very argumentative. And I have no wish to argue with you. You should have been at Heli-Expo. You might have learned a thing or two.

If that's even possible at your age.
FH1100 Pilot is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2019, 13:10
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 71
Posts: 16,313
Far be it for me to take advantage of your youth and in-experience.....so do not look for much of a response to your posts...something you must have gotten used to over the past few Years.

But since you said I was "argumentative".....lets go forth in that mode.

Exactly why do you think writing off a Blackhawk Helicopter is no big deal?

Please do explain your reasoning for that comment if you will.





SASless is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2019, 16:34
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: After all, what’s more important than proving to someone on the internet that they’re wrong? - Manson
Posts: 1,502
The prognosis here seems to be that it was weather-related apparently.

Fairly simple decisions to be made. Begs the question that if simple decisions cant be made how do you get in the front seat of a 60?

Hope is not a strategy.
RVDT is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2019, 19:04
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,475
RVDT - agreed, it starts with the met appreciation and route study and finishes with the decision to stay at home or turn back or land before fuel becomes an issue.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 12th Mar 2019, 20:13
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Posts: 658
Originally Posted by RVDT View Post
The prognosis here seems to be that it was weather-related apparently.

Fairly simple decisions to be made. Begs the question that if simple decisions cant be made how do you get in the front seat of a 60?

Hope is not a strategy.
It's because helicopter flying is not done in clinical conditions or a laboratory. We're constantly faced with dynamic situations that don't always match up with our best prior planning. Individually, we think (assume?) that we'll always make the correct decisions before and during each flight. But as much as we hate to admit it, we don't always do the right thing every time. The window for arriving helicopters at Heli-Expo was small. All pilots flying to the show knew that. The amount of pressure that was induced upon them or that they induced on themselves obviously varied.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Helicopters are VERY EASY to crash. They get easier to fly as we accrue more experience and proficiency, and because of that we may think that we have some limited protection against having an accident (*I* would never do something dumb, oh no!), but the fact remains that helicopters do not ever become any less-easy to crash. High-time pilots keep proving this over and over. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that we should simply accept accidents as part of our industry, but we must realize that humans are going to be...you know...human. In other words, if it happened to them, it could certainly happen to me.
FH1100 Pilot is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2019, 03:34
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Montreal
Posts: 576
it happened to them, it could certainly happen to me.
FH1100 don't be so hard on yourself. Cross-country flight, flat ground, airport every 20 miles and fields every 100yards. Any of my 90 hour students could do it navigating with an iPhone and a bedsheet over the instrument panel. Nav equipment and Met don't matter. Weather is what is in front of you. If it drops you back up to the last airport, or at worst land in a field I suppose. That's why this is such a mystery with two experienced and well-trained ex-military crew. Question you brought up through: is it really ok to bent Uncle Sam's hardware and just grab another off the shelf? In my slim-margin dog-eat-dog commercial world, any mishap can break a company.

I'll add a couple of map pics so everyone knows the area.





malabo is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:12
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 71
Posts: 16,313
But as much as we hate to admit it, we don't always do the right thing every time. The window for arriving helicopters at Heli-Expo was small. All pilots flying to the show knew that. The amount of pressure that was induced upon them or that they induced on themselves obviously varied.

Are you saying these two Birds made poor decisions because of "pressure" being applied by someone to deliver the goods or else?

Or are you saying they themselves "pressured" themselves into making very poor decisions....in this case it had to be a series of bad decisions to fetch them up into a situation that resulted in the destruction of a Helicopter and damn near killed them as well.

They are very fortunate it was a Blackhawk built to the Military Standard rather than a lesser standard.


Malabo.....the crew was beginning to approach some hilly ground around Chattanooga area so they would have been transitioning from reasonably flat ground to some steeper hills and more wooded areas than before.

Your Sat View shows that to some degree.

Last time I checked...control of the weather was way above any Pilot's Pay Grade.

If the weather is too bad....then that is just too bad.
SASless is offline  
Old 13th Mar 2019, 21:54
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Posts: 658
Originally Posted by malabo View Post
Question you brought up through: is it really ok to bent Uncle Sam's hardware and just grab another off the shelf? In my slim-margin dog-eat-dog commercial world, any mishap can break a company.
Obviously it's not "okay" to trash a helicopter. But what do we do, shoot them? Send them to Viet Nam? The fallout for the operator will remain to be seen. That's really none of our concern here. (But let's hope that Arista had hull insurance on the thing.)

We can assume that these guys were not inexperienced drivers. None of these firefighting companies are transitioning their 206 pilots into the right seat of the UH-60. We do not know what caused them to press on so far into deteriorating conditions. It may be something as simple as, "Yeaaaah, we probably should've turned around sooner, but we thought we were okay. And then suddenly it all turned to sh*t and...well, you know..." At that point it did not matter whether it was an S-92 or an R-22. Anyone who says it's never happened to them hasn't been flying very long...or maybe has forgotten what it's like when your aircraft has to be at a certain place at a certain time, when you're low on fuel as soon as you take off, and YOU are the guy who's supposed to be getting it there. And then the weather turns crappy...REALLY crappy, and you're sitting there, nervous as a whore in church, thinking, "Ya know, this really isn't turning out so well," and wondering why you ever became a helicopter pilot in the first place?

It's easy to sit in our armchairs and say that they should have turned around sooner, or should have landed, or should not even have gotten out of bed that morning. But we weren't there. It's a horrible situation, yeah. But nobody got badly hurt or killed, and the only thing damaged on the ground were some trees...and a replaceable helicopter. Learn from it and move on.
FH1100 Pilot is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2019, 00:05
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 60
Posts: 5,362
Originally Posted by FH1100 Pilot View Post
and you're sitting there, nervous as a whore in church, thinking, "Ya know, this really isn't turning out so well," and wondering why you ever became a helicopter pilot in the first place?
That only happened with a hydraulic failure at night trying to land on a ship in bad weather.

Having almost never gone to church, and thus not knowing one could find whores there, I became a helicopter pilot because ... hmm, let's not drift this thread.

Anyway, glad they walked away from that one. Coulda been worse.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2019, 02:46
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Posts: 658
Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
That only happened with a hydraulic failure at night trying to land on a ship in bad weather.

Having almost never gone to church, and thus not knowing one could find whores there, I became a helicopter pilot because ... hmm, let's not drift this thread.

Anyway, glad they walked away from that one. Coulda been worse.
Well Lone, as they say in church - "Amen!"
FH1100 Pilot is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2019, 06:54
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: In the mountains
Posts: 435
Learn from it and move on.
these guys should have learnt this lessen many many moons ago. It’s not that they’re 100 hr 22 drivers...!
This accident is a lesson for newbies.
Flyting is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2019, 08:11
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 7,475
Are you saying these two Birds made poor decisions because of "pressure" being applied by someone to deliver the goods or else?

Or are you saying they themselves "pressured" themselves into making very poor decisions....in this case it had to be a series of bad decisions to fetch them up into a situation that resulted in the destruction of a Helicopter and damn near killed them as well.
Sasless - the exact apportioning of the 'pressures' applied is arguable, the fact that they ended up crashing isn't.
What links the two is poor decision making.

When faced with rising ground and deteriorating weather coupled with minimal fuel reserves, I would like to think that any pilot with wings or a licence would turn round, divert or land - sadly the number of CFIT accidents doesn't support that thought.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2019, 08:34
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK and MALTA
Age: 56
Posts: 1,201
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
When faced with rising ground and deteriorating weather coupled with minimal fuel reserves, I would like to think that any pilot with wings or a licence would turn round, divert or land - sadly the number of CFIT accidents doesn't support that thought.
Crab, I am not sure that was the line you took on the SAS A109 Road Rage thread! Although I agree you on this occasion.
DOUBLE BOGEY is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2019, 13:16
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 71
Posts: 16,313
DB,

Two different events with two different outcomes with two very different fact situations.

The UK incident did not involve in an aircraft being destroyed and all onboard being injured....not even remotely close to that.

The UK incident was investigated and from what we know appears to have been considered within established SOP's, etc.

I once was in a very similar situation as the Blackhawk crew.....Winter weather system with icing and snow/sleet/freezing rain....and a ferry flight from South Texas to the Washington DC Area to replace a U/S Bell 412 at a EMS Operation.

I was not released to depart until late in the afternoon.....crawled along in the muck until the weather improved enough to climb to height to do an ILS into Memphis where I spent the night.

Next day I did the scud running thing...until very close to Dulles International.....slid over the last high ridge and down into the clear.

Crossing the mountains with freezing participation IFR was not a choice thus if I was to deliver the aircraft.....it was muck around at tree top level.

I never ran low on fuel, always knew where my fuel. stops were at all times, flew slow enough to avoid obstacles, and always had a diversion available.

The Blackhawk Crew were confronted with somewhat similar problems.

But....for some reason....they let themselves get caught out....and had a very bad result.

The UK Crew did not.

Why don't you analyze the two incidents and tell us what the two crews did differently and how that affected the outcome of the two flights.

SASless is offline  
Old 14th Mar 2019, 17:53
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK and MALTA
Age: 56
Posts: 1,201
SAS, its easy to believe that we can sit back in our armchairs and analyse as you suggest. However, real life, as you so eloquently anecdote, is somewhat different. Most of us have had similar experiences to that portrayed in both incidents.
However, there are rules governing this kind of flying and in both cases I think we would be hard pressed to demonstrate compliance.
I disagree with your understanding of the A109 crew. I do not believe they were found to be "innocent" of anything.
So what is the difference between your story, mine and the myriad of others who have ended up in shite weather and learned the "easy" way. Well, some of it is luck. But in the words of the great Gary Player, "The harder I practice, the luckier I get". So I think we can all agree that experience and skill play their part.
However, sometimes perfectly competent pilots end up pushing beyond the acceptable limits and their luck runs out. I believe that is just a stone cold fact.
The only real defence against this kind of outcome is to avoid getting into the situation in the first place AND to recognise and accept that the limits are SOLELY there to protect us from our own stupidity/over-enthusiasm/lack of experience/external pressure etc, ect.
What astounds me in most of these cases is the posters who simply cannot accept that there are rules, OM procedures and plain common dog sense that should be followed/applied/respected as the first step towards avoiding an early bath.
Without wanting to thread creep or indeed "harp" on ad-infinitum, given what I write here does not provide latitude to fly along a public road, in peace time, 10 feet off the ground, in fog close to families in their cars. Its a madness that needs to be labelled for what it actually is!
I do not know anything of this incident. However, if it transpires that an expensive helicopter was wrecked and people seriously injured, just because they wanted to get to a trade show then...………………….

Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 15th Mar 2019 at 08:48.
DOUBLE BOGEY is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2019, 00:47
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Posts: 658
"Well I was in a similar situation and I made all the correct decisions and I turned around and I didn't crash, so those bums are just total schmucks and I don't know how they ever got a pilot's license."

I'll tell ya, if I had a dime for every time I've heard something similar in my career, I'd be Donald Trump. We are ALL better than the pilots who crashed, right? Because we didn't crash, of course! It's so eeeeeeeaaaasy!
FH1100 Pilot is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2019, 08:28
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Brantisvogan
Posts: 512
Originally Posted by FH1100 Pilot View Post
We are ALL better than the pilots who crashed, right? Because we didn't crash, of course! It's so eeeeeeeaaaasy!
The insurance company would probably think that those who haven't crashed are better, that's how the system works.

It is easy to say an accident can happy to anyone, this much is true. However accidents only happen to some people not to everyone and there are various reasons for that most which have been documented in your preferred human performance manual.
Those that stick within what is permitted and choose to operate within their abilities tend to avoid accidents.
The trick is realising if you avoided one due to luck or discipline.
Bell_ringer is offline  
Old 15th Mar 2019, 13:12
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 71
Posts: 16,313
FH.... As the Cowboy Wisdom quotes remind us.... "It ain't bragging if you done it!".

Making the "right decisions" is the right thing to do...or to be done.... depending upon if you are talking about the past, present, or future.

As much as it offends your sensitivities.....it appears two of us missed missed many great opportunities to do that as evidenced by the crashed Blackhawk.

As in all of these events there are lessons to be learned.... and all too often re-learned....and put into practice.

How many opportunities did these two Pilots, both experienced US Army Helicopter Pilots, have to make just one single "Right Decision" and managed to screw it up big time?

What was it that caused them to finally wind up laying on their side in a crashed helicopter?

If we find out that it was a mechanical failure then they get a Pass....but if it as the circumstantial evidence available is as thought.....they really did mess up big time.



SASless is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.