"Why Robinson helicopters seem to have a bad habit of crashing"
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If you treat a Robinson properly, and stay within its envelope, preferably as far from the edges as you can, it does its job superbly.
Get to the edges and it can slip over the side fairly rapidly, and that is where the low-timers and the doctors come unstuck.
I first encountered the R22 after 7000 turbine rotary hours, and after the first flight I was feeling a bit deflated, this little flimsicopter was a real challenge with its twitchiness and speedy responses to inputs. But I had a couple of refreshing fizzy drinks that night, and the next day I wrung its little neck and it behaved for me forever after that. Well, not really forever, I stopped flying them back in 08.
Get to the edges and it can slip over the side fairly rapidly, and that is where the low-timers and the doctors come unstuck.
I first encountered the R22 after 7000 turbine rotary hours, and after the first flight I was feeling a bit deflated, this little flimsicopter was a real challenge with its twitchiness and speedy responses to inputs. But I had a couple of refreshing fizzy drinks that night, and the next day I wrung its little neck and it behaved for me forever after that. Well, not really forever, I stopped flying them back in 08.
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Yes, I heard that fact around year 2000. At that time I also heard from an insurance broker the wanted a B206 PIC to have 2,000 hours of helicopter time to issue the policy and probably have been through Bell school.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
With the odd exception, relating to the specific operation of a low-inertia piston single rotary type, I would hope to Christ any helicopter pilot is more than familiar with most of these "Safety Notices" before they ever consider committing serious aviation. These are Airmanship 101, not Safety Notices.
[/QUOTE]
I found this at the Robinson Web Site and found the List of Contents rather interesting.
... SAFETY
NOTICE TITLE
SN-1 Inadvertent Actuation of Mixture Control in Flight
... SAFETY
NOTICE TITLE
SN-1 Inadvertent Actuation of Mixture Control in Flight
- SN-9 Many Accidents Involve Dynamic Rollover
- SN-10 Fatal Accidents Caused by Low RPM Rotor Stall
- SN-11 Low-G Pushovers - Extremely Dangerous
- SN-15 Fuel Exhaustion Can Be Fatal
- SN-16 Power Lines Are Deadly
- SN-17 Never Exit Helicopter with Engine Running
Hold Controls When Boarding Passengers
Never Land in Tall Dry Grass - SN-18 Loss of Visibility Can Be Fatal
Overconfidence Prevails in Accidents - SN-19 Flying Low Over Water is Very Hazardous
- SN-20 Beware of Demonstration or Initial Training Flights
- SN-22 Vortex Ring State Catches Many Pilots By Surprise
- SN-23 Walking into Tail Rotor Can Be Fatal
- SN-24 Low RPM Rotor Stall Can Be Fatal
- SN-25 Carburetor Ice
- SN-26 Night Flight Plus Bad Weather Can Be Deadly
- SN-27 Surprise Throttle Chops Can Be Deadly
- SN-28 Listen for Impending Bearing Failure
Clutch Light Warning - SN-29 Airplane Pilots High Risk When Flying Helicopters
- SN-30 Loose Objects Can Be Fatal
- SN-31 Governor Can Mask Carb Ice
- SN-32 High Winds or Turbulence
- SN-33 Drive Belt Slack
- SN-34 Aerial Survey and Photo Flights - Very High Risk
- SN-35 Flying Near Broadcast Towers
- SN-36 Overspeeds During Liftoff
- SN-37 Exceeding Approved Limitations Can Be Fatal
- SN-38 Practice Autorotations Cause Many Training Accidents
- SN-39 Unusual Vibration Can Indicate a Main Rotor Blade Crack
- SN-40 Post-Crash Fires
- SN-41 Pilot Distractions
- SN-42 Unanticipated Yaw
- SN-43 Use Extra Caution During Post-Maintenance Flights
- SN-44 Carrying Passengers
With the odd exception, relating to the specific operation of a low-inertia piston single rotary type, I would hope to Christ any helicopter pilot is more than familiar with most of these "Safety Notices" before they ever consider committing serious aviation. These are Airmanship 101, not Safety Notices.
Correct, much like all SFAR 73 really does is reinforce knowledge we all should already have!
From a recent Australian perspective, it is likely that the 6 occupants who perished in fairly low energy landing or takeoff phase R44 crashes would still be alive, had the craft been fitted with the (subsequently introduced) new fuel cell.
Let’s hope the survivability figures improve.
mjb
Let’s hope the survivability figures improve.
mjb
From a recent Australian perspective, it is likely that the 6 occupants who perished in fairly low energy landing or takeoff phase R44 crashes would still be alive, had the craft been fitted with the (subsequently introduced) new fuel cell.
Let’s hope the survivability figures improve.
mjb
Let’s hope the survivability figures improve.
mjb
From a recent Australian perspective, it is likely that the 6 occupants who perished in fairly low energy landing or takeoff phase R44 crashes would still be alive, had the craft been fitted with the (subsequently introduced) new fuel cell.
Let’s hope the survivability figures improve.
mjb
Let’s hope the survivability figures improve.
mjb
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If you treat a Robinson properly, and stay within its envelope, preferably as far from the edges as you can, it does its job superbly.
Get to the edges and it can slip over the side fairly rapidly, and that is where the low-timers and the doctors come unstuck.
I first encountered the R22 after 7000 turbine rotary hours, and after the first flight I was feeling a bit deflated, this little flimsicopter was a real challenge with its twitchiness and speedy responses to inputs. But I had a couple of refreshing fizzy drinks that night, and the next day I wrung its little neck and it behaved for me forever after that. Well, not really forever, I stopped flying them back in 08.
Get to the edges and it can slip over the side fairly rapidly, and that is where the low-timers and the doctors come unstuck.
I first encountered the R22 after 7000 turbine rotary hours, and after the first flight I was feeling a bit deflated, this little flimsicopter was a real challenge with its twitchiness and speedy responses to inputs. But I had a couple of refreshing fizzy drinks that night, and the next day I wrung its little neck and it behaved for me forever after that. Well, not really forever, I stopped flying them back in 08.
I think first of if you're talking about the R22 I definitely agree with you. It's not at all a forgiving machine, and is tossable and agile to a fault. The 44 and 66 are much more forgiving, but of course there are still parts of the envelope you should probably not play with! When I first start teaching in the R22 in the mid 80s most of the FAA examiners were ex-Vietnam guys and I never met any of them that liked doing a checkride in the R22... Since these were almost exclusively CFI (instructor) rides, it invariably involved a touchdown auto as part of the test, and these guys were mostly Huey drivers. They really didn't like the R22 in the hands of a soon to be brand new instructor. They were afraid of hitting hard and injuring their back. And, I would say probably with good reason! The R22 is difficult to touchdown, especially if you don't want to slide 100 feet... The difference between a really sweet touchdown and a hard hit is measured in the difference of 1 or 2 feet of altitude. Compare that to a R44 or R66 which will do a 30 foot hovering auto at the end of a touchdown (with the RPM starting in the upper yellow).
It's also the reason why an R22 went from the planned $40k - $50k USD or something for a new one that you threw away after 12 years (the plan), to the price they are at now. Because they were getting sued by people that used them for reasons they weren't designed for, or just weren't trained properly on....all of them getting killed or maimed and blaming the heli. That put the Robinson liability insurance premiums through the roof for the factory
"for unknown reasons, the rotor diverged from its normal plane of rotation and struck the side of the helicopter"...far too frequently seen in Robinson accident reports..a former Army acquaintance of mine who was considering getting involved in a flight school flew a demo flight in one...this guy with several tours in "Nam, and more as an instructor at FT Rucker...his assessment..."thats probably the worst helicopter a beginner could get his hands on"
So Robinson has the inside scoop on Airplane Pilots do they?
Or....should Robinson have considered the training those Airplane Pilots are getting when being taught to be Helicopter Pilots?
I don't see a safety notice for Lawyers, Doctors, Dentists, and Wall Street Bankers being high risk when flying Heliicopters.
So why....pick on our Fixed Wing Brethren?
Or....should Robinson have considered the training those Airplane Pilots are getting when being taught to be Helicopter Pilots?
I don't see a safety notice for Lawyers, Doctors, Dentists, and Wall Street Bankers being high risk when flying Heliicopters.
So why....pick on our Fixed Wing Brethren?
Mast bumping only occurs as a result of two things, both of which must happen: First you must enter low G, typically by being stupid and shoving the cyclic forward very suddenly, although it can also happen when flying fast through severe turbulence. When in low G, the nose will drop and the helicopter will roll to the right (with a counter-clockwise rotor). If, and only if, you respond to the roll with left cyclic while still in low G, then mast bumping may occur in which case you die.
However that only happens if you apply left cyclic while in low G. If you either avoid low G (the correct thing to do) or you apply gentle aft cyclic to recover from low G without trying to correct the roll first, then everything will be fine. But keep in mind that when the uncommanded roll to the right occurs, the nose will be down, because if it is not then you won't roll at all.
However that only happens if you apply left cyclic while in low G. If you either avoid low G (the correct thing to do) or you apply gentle aft cyclic to recover from low G without trying to correct the roll first, then everything will be fine. But keep in mind that when the uncommanded roll to the right occurs, the nose will be down, because if it is not then you won't roll at all.
Do you really think that is the case? More than a few times folks here have pointed out the rather extraordinary safety bulletins that form part of the POH. Not to mention the rather blunt, no excuses stuff they teach at the factory Robinson Safety Course. And their total support of SFAR 73.
That's certainly a part of the problem, and is of no surprise to anyone. The typical R22/R44 owner may have gotten his rating with between 60-100 hours. Most of them only fly 50 hours or less a year, and a fairly large percentage that I encounter don't fly with an instructor regularly so by the time they need a Flight Review they can be very rusty indeed. To some degree it's actually a testament to the reliability of the helicopter because a fair number of them won't even get the collective down for an engine failure, let alone dealing with something scary like a tail rotor failure. There are exceptions of course, I have a few guys that fly with me every few weeks to stay current, but I would say that's the minority of the private owners. So, they're low time and stay that way, with very little recurrent training, which is fine as long as nothing goes wrong.
Well that certainly was a long post for the internet! I must say having met a few private R44 owners I must agree. They do seem to be in a category all their own. As for me, I've been flying Robbies recreationally for almost 2 decades and having since flown the 2 other helicopters used for training back then (Enstrom and Schweizer) I'm glad I learned how to fly in an R22, and that has nothing to do with price! $100 bucks more for an R44 though? Yeah, I'll still pick the R22. Thing is, I flew an R22 just the other night and after all these years I still love flying the little guy!
,...and that's all that really matters!
Oh yeah, and "tossable and agile"? Those are 2 qualities that make it so much more fun to fly!
,...and that's all that really matters!
Oh yeah, and "tossable and agile"? Those are 2 qualities that make it so much more fun to fly!
A long post but a good one Paul
I still have no intention of getting back into one or renewing it on my licence but it is good to hear from someone with a lot of experience on it and a good sense of perspective.
I still have no intention of getting back into one or renewing it on my licence but it is good to hear from someone with a lot of experience on it and a good sense of perspective.