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"Why Robinson helicopters seem to have a bad habit of crashing"

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"Why Robinson helicopters seem to have a bad habit of crashing"

Old 16th Mar 2019, 17:40
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by aa777888 View Post
The latest US versions of the POH are always on the Robinson website. The latest POH for both the Raven and Raven II do not include the information you reference in either the limitations or normal procedures sections. The latest POH is always the most correct version unless perhaps you have not complied with an AD.

Having an up to date POH can be important. Keeping up to date on one's knowledge of POH changes can be important. You may want to order up the latest from Robinson.
So that note's not there anymore. Too bad, its a good note.
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 19:03
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
I found this at the Robinson Web Site and found the List of Contents rather interesting.
Have you ever checked the safety notices that came with your new toaster?
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 19:40
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 19:43
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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SN-29 Airplane Pilots High Risk When Flying Helicopters
So Robinson has the inside scoop on Airplane Pilots do they?

Or....should Robinson have considered the training those Airplane Pilots are getting when being taught to be Helicopter Pilots?

I don't see a safety notice for Lawyers, Doctors, Dentists, and Wall Street Bankers being high risk when flying Heliicopters.

So why....pick on our Fixed Wing Brethren?

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Old 16th Mar 2019, 20:04
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
So Robinson has the inside scoop on Airplane Pilots do they?

Or....should Robinson have considered the training those Airplane Pilots are getting when being taught to be Helicopter Pilots?

I don't see a safety notice for Lawyers, Doctors, Dentists, and Wall Street Bankers being high risk when flying Heliicopters.

So why....pick on our Fixed Wing Brethren?
It is possible to find the reasons, why airplane pilots are at risk, when you have experiences in both - or read Chickenhawk, the part, where jet pilots got a ride in a helicopter and started to sweat and get pale, when the helicopter reduced speed - or just read the appropriate part from robinson
https://robinsonheli.com/wp-content/...2/rhc_sn29.pdf
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Old 16th Mar 2019, 21:22
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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"Chickenhawk" as a reference.......oh come on....pull the other one will you!


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Old 17th Mar 2019, 09:16
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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SASless,

As you are one of the guys with the „greatest knowledge“ on this forum you should be able to answer your own question about the plank pilots.
As for the list - you could use it on all other helicopters as well, as it only points out that often the problem is between the headset!
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 10:54
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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I recall my very first 3 hrs (dual) in an R22 fondly - steady 20kt winds - my first hover turn ended up somewhere far, far away from where it was initiated. Even flew them solo 25-30 gust 35 winds but they felt like they were going fall apart so I would just try not to stress the machine and mostly bob along uncomfortably. At the time also enjoyed windsurfing (the board and sail variety) and figured this helped - it certainly did with the plank. As I mentioned previously, the R22 is a doddle in fair weather but add a few bumps and it becomes a handful to fly but not impossible for the experienced (I guess now it is since they changed the rules).

After a number of years flying helicopters I went back and tried a plank and found I had a tendency to let the IAS drop off on short finals - but after 2 circuits I had that sorted and have never had that sensation ever again. It's no big deal.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 10:57
  #89 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by evil7 View Post
As for the list - you could use it on all other helicopters as well
You could but the manufacturers don't see the need to cover the cockpit with safety stickers.
Perhaps airline pilots are just more comfortable in a Bell, airbus or similar.
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 12:36
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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Evil.....I have no monopoly on knowledge and experience as there is plenty of that amongst the many who attend this Forum.

I do enjoy asking questions to see if it might lead to a discussion that benefits those who might be benefited by that discussion.

Care to give us your view of why it is Robinson that has what appears to be an odd approach in the topics they choose for their Safety Notices?

I recall Bell did something similar when they invented the "LTE" thing when they were producing Helicopters with tail rotors that provided too little thrust.

Sikorsky did something similar when the S-58T had a thing called "Tail Rotor Buzz".

Airbus had done something about the Hydraulic system on the 350 as I recall.

But in those cases.....those "Safety Notices" applied to a single topic that was narrowly focused upon one thing.

Why does Robinson appear to be trying to imitate a Flight Safety Organization's scope of Safety Notices?

Did they see a need based upon incidents that occurred in their Helicopters.....or are they just trying to be proactive in advancing helicopter flight safety in general?
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Old 17th Mar 2019, 23:42
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Did they see a need based upon incidents that occurred in their Helicopters.....or are they just trying to be proactive in advancing helicopter flight safety in general?
SAS, I'd say the two are linked. The pilots generally are at the bottom end in the experience ladder and naturally prone to having undesirable events, Frank has responded by being proactive in acknowledging their lack of experience. I see it as similar to the "Lycoming Flyer", which educates pilots/maintenance on their engines.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 07:14
  #92 (permalink)  
 
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Many years ago I attended one of the early safety courses. It was apparent that that Frank was between a rock and a hard place. Before the R22, helicopters were too expensive for the average private pilot, and the ones that could afford were taught by mainly experienced ex military instructors. Suddenly, the R22 appeared and the users were low time pilots, training schools with low experience instructors, cattle herders, deer cullers and the like. This pretty much guaranteed a high accident rate and Frank was being sued left right and centre. The result was the safety courses and a blizzard of safety notices for survival of the company.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 07:17
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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SAS,

I never said you have a monopoly, I most of the time admire your experience. Itˋs only that sometimes you seem to forget your first sentence above yourself��. But I also often like your provocative responses. ��

As for the response - Megan beat me to it. But I would also add that it is the combination of the R construction with the lack of experience. I used to have ratings for the 22&44 and have flown them both commercially, by the way. If somebody asks me about Robbies I always respond - EVERY helicopter can be flown safely within its „frame“, but the Robbinson frame is far too small for me, nowadays!

Regarding the plank pilots I think what R means is that they have a tendency to dive away when you need to avoid something which means a pushover that is not healthy in Robbies.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 07:32
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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"for unknown reasons, the rotor diverged from its normal plane of rotation and struck the side of the helicopter"...far too frequently seen in Robinson accident reports..a former Army acquaintance of mine who was considering getting involved in a flight school flew a demo flight in one...this guy with several tours in "Nam, and more as an instructor at FT Rucker...his assessment..."thats probably the worst helicopter a beginner could get his hands on"
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 09:08
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rotorfossil View Post
Many years ago I attended one of the early safety courses. It was apparent that that Frank was between a rock and a hard place. Before the R22, helicopters were too expensive for the average private pilot, and the ones that could afford were taught by mainly experienced ex military instructors. Suddenly, the R22 appeared and the users were low time pilots, training schools with low experience instructors, cattle herders, deer cullers and the like. This pretty much guaranteed a high accident rate and Frank was being sued left right and centre. The result was the safety courses and a blizzard of safety notices for survival of the company.
It's also the reason why an R22 went from the planned $40k - $50k USD or something for a new one that you threw away after 12 years (the plan), to the price they are at now. Because they were getting sued by people that used them for reasons they weren't designed for, or just weren't trained properly on....all of them getting killed or maimed and blaming the heli. That put the Robinson liability insurance premiums through the roof for the factory
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 09:15
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ironbutt57 View Post
"for unknown reasons, the rotor diverged from its normal plane of rotation and struck the side of the helicopter"...far too frequently seen in Robinson accident reports..a former Army acquaintance of mine who was considering getting involved in a flight school flew a demo flight in one...this guy with several tours in "Nam, and more as an instructor at FT Rucker...his assessment..."thats probably the worst helicopter a beginner could get his hands on"
From my point of view....as a plank pilot of many years....I actually quite liked the idea of learning in the R22 after a couple of flights, as it was clearly a bit of a bugger to get to grips with and would make other helicopters seem quite easy to fly. However, I was also very aware that the time to react to a loss of power, could be the difference between an autorotation to whatever end and a lump of metal falling out of the sky with slowly rotating rotors! I am also a believer in using equipment for what it was designed for.....and the R22 was never designed as a training helicopter. It doesn't cope well with ham fisted flying.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 10:04
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 10:07
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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So can most helicopters but not as frequently as does the Robinson variety......some like to remove the cockpit.
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Old 18th Mar 2019, 10:39
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Old 19th Mar 2019, 10:09
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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If you treat a Robinson properly, and stay within its envelope, preferably as far from the edges as you can, it does its job superbly.

Get to the edges and it can slip over the side fairly rapidly, and that is where the low-timers and the doctors come unstuck.

I first encountered the R22 after 7000 turbine rotary hours, and after the first flight I was feeling a bit deflated, this little Robinson was a real challenge with its twitchiness and speedy responses to inputs. But I had a couple of refreshing fizzy drinks that night, and the next day I wrung its little neck and it behaved for me forever after that. Well, not really forever, I stopped flying them back in 08.
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