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A109S HEMS down in Portugal

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A109S HEMS down in Portugal

Old 15th Dec 2018, 23:46
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A109S HEMS down in Portugal

An A109S has disappeared, in Portugal, returning to base after an HEMS mission. Two pilots, one doctor and one nurse were on board, according to official sources (INEM). It has not been confirmed by INEM, but the news website of the public RTV Portuguese corporation is already publishing that all on board were found death.
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Old 16th Dec 2018, 09:23
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Originally Posted by Aniol View Post
An A109S has disappeared, in Portugal, returning to base after an HEMS mission. Two pilots, one doctor and one nurse were on board, according to official sources (INEM). It has not been confirmed by INEM, but the news website of the public RTV Portuguese corporation is already publishing that all on board were found death.
Unfortunately the worst news you could ear.

4 confirmed dead, Pilot, Co pilot, Doctor and Nurse.

In a very special moment for Babcock Portugal, they were in the process of changing helicopter from the 109 to the 139.

All prayers to the family

RIP
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Old 16th Dec 2018, 11:22
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Just being reported that the radio had failed in the he heli. They were only able to locate the wreckage after triangulation of the mobiles of those on board.
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Old 16th Dec 2018, 17:00
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INEM air ambulance crash. 2 pilots, doctor and a nurse onboard. May they RIP.

https://portugalresident.com/four-co...d-intense-rain
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Old 16th Dec 2018, 21:56
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SA 15/12/2018 18:30->

METAR LPPR 151830Z 19021KT 4200 -RA BR BKN003 BKN005 14/14
Q1021=

SA 15/12/2018 18:00->

METAR LPPR 151800Z 19020KT 6000 -DZ BKN003 BKN005 14/14 Q1021
RERA=

SA 15/12/2018 17:30->

METAR LPPR 151730Z 19022KT 6000 RA BKN003 BKN005 14/14 Q1021=

SA 15/12/2018 17:00->

METAR LPPR 151700Z 19021G32KT 6000 -RA OVC004 14/14 Q1021=

SA 15/12/2018 16:30->

METAR LPPR 151630Z 19020G30KT 4700 RADZ BR OVC004 14/14 Q1022=

+
https://static.globalnoticias.pt/jn/...20181216180719


https://www.jn.pt/local/galerias/int...-10330968.html
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 03:10
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Will anybody learn one day to stop doing this after everything we have seen during the last 20 years ???
Why anybody will put himself in this position returning to base in total IFR conditions at night?
What is the reason to decide to go when the only thing to do is an IFR flight to an airport?
Unbelievable !
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 07:18
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WX was crap, however letís not just make assumptions until the facts are known. Something else may have terribly went wrong.

RIP.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 07:46
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... and it hit a mast? That bit doesn’t appear to be an assumption.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 08:44
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Respect, families are obviously grieving. Unless you were in the cockpit no one has any right to make public assumptions. We all have our opinions, letís keep them to ourselves on a public forum particularly at this time. Let the investigation identify what caused this accident.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 09:52
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Originally Posted by Duck Pilot View Post
We all have our opinions, letís keep them to ourselves on a public forum
Now thereís an oxymoron if Iíve ever seen one!! If people didnít share their opinions on a public forum, doesnít it cease to be a public forum?

You are correct that we need to be respectful, but considering that we are participating in a public forum we actually do have the right to make public assumptions. Like most accidents Ppruners will have debated the possibilities & determined a probable cause years before the regulators. Unfortunately I canít wait years to learn from others mistakes, so Iíll keep an eye on PPRuNe & try to keep myself out of trouble.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 12:31
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If I had gone in a crash.....I very much would like to have my actions carefully examined to see what, if anything, I did that led up to the tragic event.

We are all human and are prone to make mistakes.....I thought myself the "Ace of the Base" and could cope with anything....KNOWING that was not true.

Heliduck is right and I have said much the same in the past but I also believe the discussion should remain professional, polite, and discerning.

The 169 crash thread is a case in point.

At times some posters appeared to be from some far off planet with their submissions while others have done an excellent job of using the official information to base a very technical and useful examination of the 169 Tail Rotor Control system.

Absolutely we. need to learn from our own mistakes and others as there is no need repeating either on our own.

As tragic as these events are....if we do not learn and apply the lessons taught....then they remain just a tragic loss of life.....with no good coming from them.
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 13:49
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As tragic as these events are....if we do not learn and apply the lessons taught....then they remain just a tragic loss of life.....with no good coming from them.
trouble is - and it is only what appears to have happened here - pilots still don't learn about pushing on in bad weather, day or night, so I think Arcals comments may well prove justified
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 15:40
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Some learn....some don't.

Those that don't ...wind up being subjects of discussion....don't they?

The ones that do....do the discussing!
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 22:43
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Iím on holiday now n Porto, not too far from the crash site, and when my wife translated the radio report at around 20h00 local, that a helicopter was missing, while we were driving home on the highway (100km/h zone) at 40kmh due to extreme rain and wind, I said ďA helicopter? In this? Wow!Ē

I hear that that the crew had just dropped a patient, so this was. A return flight, as stated above. Such a shame. Iím not a pilot myself but an enthusiast. Am I right in saying that itís 100% the pilots decision to fly? Also, without sounding like someone who is suggesting that they could have flown (as Iím fully aware of the weather at that time, as the roads were treacherous), do those helicopters have radar and all that? Or are they not suited for IFR conditions of that sort?

Strange about the news about radios failing. I hear they could only find the wreckage using cellphone triangulation. Or is that quite normal?
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Old 17th Dec 2018, 23:10
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I'm just speculating because Ppruners love that sh$t, but perhaps theres a translation, or language issue about the radios and they really meant the ELT signal.
If you're dead, you sure aren't going to dial up the tower frequency and let them know you crashed, working radios or not, and if the crash was bad enough, the ELT isn't going to function well either. I'm glad that cell phone technology can help in some cases, but it's not ideal.
Sorry about the loss of life, it's always tragic.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 01:11
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What do we know so far?
Aircraft was based in the northeast corner of Portugal at Marcedo de Cavaleiros, where I show only a hospital helipad. It undertook a medvac call from Braganca, about 30 miles further northeast near the Spanish border, and transported a patient to Porto. Presumably done in the afternoon. They then departed Porto presumably to reposition back 100nm in Marcedo. Sunset in Porto is 1808Z, or 1708 local time. There was a 1.5 hour delay looking for the crash, search was started at 20:15 local, so takeoff shortly after dark, in crap weather as Aser has kindly provided. They didn't make it five minutes from Porto, crashing about 10 miles away.
The ELT didn't work, statistically they only work 60% of the time, less in helicopters, so no surprise there. What about radar following or does Porto not have radar? What about flight following? Satellite tracking? Check-in every 30 min? What kind of operational control system would not realize an aircraft is missing for 1.5 hours? Surely they don't rely on an ELT known to be unreliable.

There is no instrument approach anywhere near Marcedo, the closest one is their point of departure, Porto. Rising ground and mountainous the further northeast you go - Marcedo is 1800', many spot altitudes over 4000' in that area. Rules out IFR. Weather should have ruled out night VFR, but we don't know what operational limitations Babcock works under. I take exception to Arcal76 and Crab's assertion that the pilots should know better. Well, yes, but a sophisticated competent management should have clearly laid out safe operating procedures. It is never up to the pilots to fly where and when they want in any Commercial operation.

Was a tower really hit in low level controlled flight or was the aircraft already descending for some other reason? If low-level night VFR was expected and sanctioned by management, was the aircraft equipped with EGPWS, did the pilots employ an appropriate CRM for that kind of flying or was CRM only considered for IFR? Even the IFR JeppFD shows lots of towers on their route.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 06:54
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I take exception to Arcal76 and Crab's assertion that the pilots should know better. Well, yes, but a sophisticated competent management should have clearly laid out safe operating procedures. It is never up to the pilots to fly where and when they want in any Commercial operation.
I think there are plenty who will disagree with that last sentence. Operators might put pressure on a pilot but the person with their hands on the controls always has the final word - ass, tin, ticket to quote sasless.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 10:12
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Originally Posted by malabo View Post
...Marcedo is 1800', many spot altitudes over 4000' in that area. Rules out IFR.
Sorry, but why does terrain up to 4000' rule out operating IFR?
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 10:42
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The suggestion that they used cellphone trialgulation is pronbably correct.

There are a couple of now proven systems out there that can find you if your phone is simply switched on. They were originally designed to find people [recently] buried under snow but it became clear that that they act like an locator beacon for many other scenarios including ones where the missing person is out of cellphone range and SAR aircraft are now carrying the systems. Triagulation is simply another step in the same direction.
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Old 18th Dec 2018, 11:59
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Originally Posted by helopat View Post
Sorry, but why does terrain up to 4000' rule out operating IFR?
I assume he meant due to icing condition, which could easily be a factor at this time of year but would not have been on this particular evening as at 14 C at Porto, you could happily fly around at 5-6000 ft in a 'positive airband'.
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