Tail Rotor vs Twin Rotor (ie Chinook)
That’s not really true. There are plenty of co-axial helicopters out there (the Russians love them).
Some of the most modern designs use co-axial rotor systems. S97 Raider
Some of the most modern designs use co-axial rotor systems. S97 Raider
CG Range: Single vs Tandem Rotor
A popular myth which has survived for years in spite of facts to the contrary. One example I was able to access online just now:
CH-47D Manual.
Max Weight: 50,000 lbs
CG Range at 50,000 lbs: 322-331 inches= 9 inches
MH-53E Natops
Max Weight: 70,000 lbs
CG Range at 70,000 lbs: 343.9-365.0 inches= 21.1 inches
A popular myth which has survived for years in spite of facts to the contrary. One example I was able to access online just now:
CH-47D Manual.
Max Weight: 50,000 lbs
CG Range at 50,000 lbs: 322-331 inches= 9 inches
MH-53E Natops
Max Weight: 70,000 lbs
CG Range at 70,000 lbs: 343.9-365.0 inches= 21.1 inches
BV, in the late `50s Westland built the Belvedere,tandem rotor helo,twin engine,originally for the RN,who decided they didn`t want it ,so it ended up in the RAF.The engines ,however were mounted vertically,one behind the cockpit,the other down at the aft end.The rotors were conventional 4bladed metal,with power controls ,but both rotors/g`boxes were joined be a `syncho-shaft,.The difference between this system and the Chinook is that each engine effectively powered each rotor,but the synchro-shaft kept the two power units balanced.If you had an engine failure,either engine could drive the lot,so only in that case was the s-s taking full torque..Also the aircraft did not have such a blade` overlap` as the Chinny,and had more height difference between front and rear rotors..There were a couple of s-s failures,but aircraft landed cautiously,as the rotor RPM could be balanced on the twin throttles..
There were 3 main problems for flying the Bevelgear,;getting in,climbing a 6ft ladder,starting the engine behind the cockpit ,cartridge -Avpin-light-up,and getting out in a hurry if the Avpin starter blew up...!!
By the time it left service in the late 60`s,most of it`s tech. problems had been sorted,but it did great work in the Far East,was able to lift home 3 Whirlwinds home that I had scattered around Borneo( one was a tail-rotor and gearbox departure) ,all returned to service later...
As an aside I did get a trip in a JagT-Bird with Ron Burrows,laden with `dumb test.bombs`,took 99.95 % of B-Ds runway to get airborne(over 1minute rolling),and the noting control deflections ,G,yaw reponse,for an hour.....I was a bit of a `sucker` for those trips...and didn`t puke....
There were 3 main problems for flying the Bevelgear,;getting in,climbing a 6ft ladder,starting the engine behind the cockpit ,cartridge -Avpin-light-up,and getting out in a hurry if the Avpin starter blew up...!!
By the time it left service in the late 60`s,most of it`s tech. problems had been sorted,but it did great work in the Far East,was able to lift home 3 Whirlwinds home that I had scattered around Borneo( one was a tail-rotor and gearbox departure) ,all returned to service later...
As an aside I did get a trip in a JagT-Bird with Ron Burrows,laden with `dumb test.bombs`,took 99.95 % of B-Ds runway to get airborne(over 1minute rolling),and the noting control deflections ,G,yaw reponse,for an hour.....I was a bit of a `sucker` for those trips...and didn`t puke....
I think all helicopters are evil. I believe aircraft should land and then stop not vice versa.
Thread Starter
Hmmmmm.
I think we can agree that the Swan is an incredibly graceful bird. A fine example of the genus. Have you ever watched one land on water? They don’t stop first.
Helicopters. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I refuse to be persuaded otherwise.
BV
Helicopters. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I refuse to be persuaded otherwise.
BV
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Piasecki produced several models of tandem-rotor helicopters. The Piasecki YH-16A Transporter was a beast of a tandem-rotor helicopter:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piasecki_H-16_Transporter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piasecki_H-16_Transporter
Bob,
To master the art of 3D flying (up/down/fwd/back/yaw) one has to work miracles. In nature this has been developed to allow creatures like the humming bird or the bee to get to places and food, that normal animals would struggle with.
The same goes for us humans. We have come up with a solution to resolve 3D flying - helicopters.
This allows us helicopter pilots to stop at any time, anywhere, to go backwards, rotate, slide, yaw - at rates unavailable to FW.
This gives us access to dimensions that people like you only dream of.
Falling vertically off a glacier. Flying through and around buildings. Landing on mountain pinacles. Landing on moving platforms.
It is the nearest to natural flying that anyone can get. Only in a helicopter.........your loss.
To master the art of 3D flying (up/down/fwd/back/yaw) one has to work miracles. In nature this has been developed to allow creatures like the humming bird or the bee to get to places and food, that normal animals would struggle with.
The same goes for us humans. We have come up with a solution to resolve 3D flying - helicopters.
This allows us helicopter pilots to stop at any time, anywhere, to go backwards, rotate, slide, yaw - at rates unavailable to FW.
This gives us access to dimensions that people like you only dream of.
Falling vertically off a glacier. Flying through and around buildings. Landing on mountain pinacles. Landing on moving platforms.
It is the nearest to natural flying that anyone can get. Only in a helicopter.........your loss.
Dropping a Winch line to a drowning person has its own small reward or using the unique capability of the helicopter to save a person from a life threatening situation adds a dimension to our kind of flying that Fixed Wing Pilots do not get to enjoy.
When someone gives you a long tight hug and thanks you from the very bottom of their Heart for what you did....that feeling is hard to beat.
Handing a Teddy Bear to a small child in the hospital room after they rode in your helicopter to the Emergency Room after being very seriously injured and seeing the smile of their face....yes....helicopter flying is different.....very different.
When someone gives you a long tight hug and thanks you from the very bottom of their Heart for what you did....that feeling is hard to beat.
Handing a Teddy Bear to a small child in the hospital room after they rode in your helicopter to the Emergency Room after being very seriously injured and seeing the smile of their face....yes....helicopter flying is different.....very different.
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Don't forget the "other" twin rotor configuration: synchropter (twin intermeshing rotors like Kaman's HH-43 and K-Max.)
Somebody once told me that the tandem rotor configuration is more resistant to vortex ring state (which is what downed the stealth Blackhawk in the Bin Laden compound.)
On the other hand someone else said the tandem rotor was more sensititve to vortex ring state.
Don't know which, if either, is true, but I'd guess they are equally vulnerable.
Somebody once told me that the tandem rotor configuration is more resistant to vortex ring state (which is what downed the stealth Blackhawk in the Bin Laden compound.)
On the other hand someone else said the tandem rotor was more sensititve to vortex ring state.
Don't know which, if either, is true, but I'd guess they are equally vulnerable.
Last edited by KenV; 8th Nov 2018 at 17:06.
BV, many years ago when CFS(H) was at Ternhill,all prospective helicopter pilots( volunteers or pressedmen) had to undergo a selection process in the `roofless` hangar;before the days of `simulators and x-box stuff that you guys play about with now,.There would be a table with 3 judges,usually the Staish,CFI,and OC Ops,all venerable helicopter pilots,of many years experience.Each candidate was issued with a pair of roller skates which you put on,stood in the middle of the arena,and then had to rub your stomach in a circular manner,whilst `patting` your head with your other hand.At the same time you were expected to `flow around the arena ` ,pirouetting gracefully,and alternately changing the direction of patting and circular movement of your arms. In the winter,as it was a roofless hangar,you were given ice skates,as rollers wouldn`t work; nowadays a skateboard would be used...
You were allowed 2falls and 1 submission,with the `judges marking for originality,artistic content,and freestyle..Only the best were of course selected to continue the helicopter course....
So ,next time you get offered a trip in a helo,just remember the skill and daring that helo pilots used to undertake and how priviledged you should feel.....!!!
You were allowed 2falls and 1 submission,with the `judges marking for originality,artistic content,and freestyle..Only the best were of course selected to continue the helicopter course....
So ,next time you get offered a trip in a helo,just remember the skill and daring that helo pilots used to undertake and how priviledged you should feel.....!!!
Don't particularly care for those ugly chinookesque contraptions, and don't get me started on the (could they be any uglier) stacked rotor monstrosities! Not a fan of that douchie looking engine fan style thing either.,...and NOTAR, you ain't winning any style contests either.
Just give me a plain old "traditional" tail rotor, thank you.
Just give me a plain old "traditional" tail rotor, thank you.
BV, many years ago when CFS(H) was at Ternhill,all prospective helicopter pilots( volunteers or pressedmen) had to undergo a selection process
And thanks to John Dixon, I now have another "urban myth" to add to Nick Lappos' list.
Ken V: re the Bin Laden Hawk and the wall. First thing I did upon seeing that picture was find out the altitude and temperature just using the data in the media. Then I figured out the HOGE weight for what I thought was a reasonable load of troops ( I asssumed the 75th Rangers travel heavy for that sort of action ) . They should have had no trouble at all. Looked at the photo again and noticed that the engine intakes and exhaust had been modified, pretty extensively, as had the tail rotor. Could not come to any conclusion re the main rotor. Designers of intakes and exhaust can easily affect the engine power available, and an aerodynamically inefficient tail rotor can require more horsepower than the original. ( It was pretty obvious that the modifications to the machine were major, and if it was done by anyone at SA, it was a mystery to me. I did have one pilot go on travel with a flight test engineer once, on a program we wern’t running, that he couldn’t talk about ( and remains so to this day, far as I know ).
Bottom line about all this is that I’d opine that they had a hover performance deficit.
People who haven’t looked into doing vortex ring testing throw the term around with ease, but if you’ve really looked for the classic case, you’d know that you have to be in a perfect vertical column to obtain the vortex circulation. The vortex ring conditions put out there by some, that roughness at 20-40 kias with a rate of descent of 1000fpm or so is a quite different aerodynamic story and has no performance implication ( although it can most certainly have vibration related consequences, a simple example of which is all the sheet metal beef ups required once Ericsson put the Skycranes into the logging business and they were in that environment continually ).
Correction, I assumed 75th Rangers at the time-later contradicted by the real unit in this case.Same basic idea, though as to weight.
Bottom line about all this is that I’d opine that they had a hover performance deficit.
People who haven’t looked into doing vortex ring testing throw the term around with ease, but if you’ve really looked for the classic case, you’d know that you have to be in a perfect vertical column to obtain the vortex circulation. The vortex ring conditions put out there by some, that roughness at 20-40 kias with a rate of descent of 1000fpm or so is a quite different aerodynamic story and has no performance implication ( although it can most certainly have vibration related consequences, a simple example of which is all the sheet metal beef ups required once Ericsson put the Skycranes into the logging business and they were in that environment continually ).
Correction, I assumed 75th Rangers at the time-later contradicted by the real unit in this case.Same basic idea, though as to weight.
Last edited by JohnDixson; 8th Nov 2018 at 20:30. Reason: Formulation.Correction
The Bin Laden raid VRS theory holds some water since the downwash circulation was likely exacerbated by the tall courtyard walls (I believe I read that the teams trained on exact replicas of the compound save for a fence in lieu of a wall, for some reason).
And to go on with the dual rotor argument, I have yet to seen a mention of these particular contraptions:
And to go on with the dual rotor argument, I have yet to seen a mention of these particular contraptions:
A-C, this was of course true as well for those of us out of basic FTS,the others were generally `old`(over 30)...I ,however,as a Sgt,had for years had those words `S%%^&**&`,GET YER F$$$$$NG skates on`, shouted at me ,so it was a bit of a no-brainer really...
Well, they don't like it when the blades start intermeshing..... https://assets.publishing.service.go...988_G-BWFC.pdf
And two people survived that!