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Newlywed Helo Crash in Texas

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Newlywed Helo Crash in Texas

Old 6th Nov 2018, 23:22
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Ex-mil pilots sometimes put some friction on the stick to give it stability.
They are deluding themselves if they think that friction adds stability. Force Trim, like on a Huey, does add a little by trying to return the cyclic to its previous position, but simple friction is not anything like that.
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Old 6th Nov 2018, 23:35
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Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie
Ex-mil pilots sometimes put some friction on the stick to give it stability. (ex-parte)

They are deluding themselves if they think that friction adds stability. Force Trim, like on a Huey, does add a little by trying to return the cyclic to its previous position, but simple friction is not anything like that.
We(I) didn't think it added stability so much as added a poor mans autopilot for short time while we were busy delivering our 'payload', or otherwise busy trying to find stuff that was after us. For me, and me alone, I preferred high stick forces mainly because the GIF pickling off that damn nose cannon made the skinny plane shake like a 5.0 on the Richter scale. For the GIF, I liked high stick forces because the cyclic was a 4:1 reduction to the stick in back, so if I happen to sneeze, or cough and was flying the plane, it wouldn't make huge uncommanded(purposeful) excursions.
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 00:55
  #63 (permalink)  
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Another report just posted of a mayday call and a crash time of 1:57 am:

Pilot Killed in Helicopter with Newlyweds Made Mayday Call Before Crash: 'No One Is to Blame'

November 06, 2018 07:51 PM

Capt. Gerald D. Lawrence lost his life along with newlyweds Will Byler and Bailee Byler early on Sunday morning after the helicopter he was piloting crashed shortly after taking off from the couple’s wedding.

Lawrence, an experienced pilot and Vietnam War veteran, made a call for help just before the Bell 206B helicopter crashed near the Byler’s ranch around 1:57 a.m. outside of Uvalde, Texas, his stepdaughter, Amilyn Willard, tells PEOPLE.

“He did make a mayday call. He knew his job like the back of his hand,” Willard says of her stepfather, 76. “He flew all the time. These people trusted their most precious gift — their children — in his hands. He was very well-trained. He got his physical every year. He was in perfect condition.”

Willard tells PEOPLE that Lawrence attended the lavish wedding with his wife, Willard’s mother, — whom he married in April — and did not drink alcohol at the event. She adds that her stepfather was a “very trusted friend” of the couple’s family.

“They all loved my dad dearly and they saw us as family as well,” Willard says of herself, her mother and her siblings. “The family does not blame my father for the accident. We don’t know exactly what happened, but no one is to blame. Everybody lost a loved one and a friend.”
https://people.com/human-interest/ge...wlyweds-crash/

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Old 7th Nov 2018, 01:21
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You're correct, 'ethical' - it wasn't for stability by any stretch and it was never presented as such, but it was suggested for providing a bit of resistance on a loose cyclic, you know, for sneezes, coughs, or when looking across the panel or radio array so your cyclic hand wasn't prone to unconsciously follow your gaze... stuff like that.

I just read that same report a few minutes earlier Airbubba. So, I heard someone earlier in the thread making noise about age. What "magic" age are we talking here? Now, I'm not so obstinate as to not believe age may (or may not) have been a factor, but to arbitrarily throw an "elderly" statement out there? The dude from the Kane'hoe accident that supposedly suffered some kinduv a medical fit was 57. Is he to be arbitrarily considered elderly, or unfit, or otherwise questionable because he's >55 years old --- how about >50? August 27, 1990 another dark, tragic day in helicopter history (and especially sad for us here in the Great Sovereign State of Texas) - the "magic" age of that pilot was a mind boggling 42 years old. Ironically enough, the age difference notwithstanding, there are a few striking similarities between the two accidents. I'll agree with SASless, this kind of unfortunate stuff doesn't seem to be age discriminatory.

Regardless - like too many others, this one had a very sad outcome. To the families and friends of the victims, my heartfelt condolences and may their kin rest in peace. RIP-SRV - 27AUG90. To all the Rotorheads - be careful, fly safe and may good fortune seek you out.
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 01:24
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A "MayDay Call".....well now that narrows it down a whole bunch!

What was the content?
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 04:22
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Hmmm, a mayday call would generally rule out a CFIT, unless it were very brief and disorientation to the point of loss of control. However that would preclude a 'no one is to blame'.
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 06:22
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Sandblaster - I wasn't trying to be derogatory about the 'elderly' but I know as I get close to 60, that I am not as sharp as I was at 30, 40 or 50 - age takes its toll physically and mentally no matter how well you look after yourself.

I know that I would have been tired at midnight having been up for most of the day - he may well have had a nap to stave off the fatigue (I use those regularly) and was completely 100% and ready to when he got airborne - fatigue and age might not have been a factor in this tragedy but they can't be discounted out of hand just because he was a fine chap with an up to date physical.

I was more concerned by the nature of his departure - low level over trees going from light to dark - doesn't sound like someone at the top of their game.
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 06:25
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If this is a CFIT, what it looks like so far, then someone has to be to blame, unfortunately. That's one for the survivors, the press, and perhaps some lawyers to chase, though.

We just need to wait for the NTSB to try to figure out what happened, and tell us that, leaving blame aside. With no data recorded prior to the accident that will be difficult to do, unless they can find some obvious technical defect that could have caused the accident.
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 10:04
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If in fact the Pilot made some sort of radio call....the content of that call should shed some light on the cause.

There is no CVR installed on the aircraft I am reasonably certain.

Unless a definite mechanical cause is discovered.....there can be but one avenue to look to for an explanation.

The odds of a mechanical failure putting the aircraft on the face of such a steep bluff below the summit....well you figure them out.

I wonder what the weather was like that night.....overcast, no Moon or Starlight to aid in controlling the aircraft.....no surface lighting upon leaving the Ranch Headquarters?

How many EMS Helicopters have been lost in such situations....flying VFR/VMC without NVG's across large expanses of unlit terrain?

More than a few....is the answer to that last question.

It shall be interesting to see what the NTSB reports upon completion of its investigation.
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 10:06
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Sandblaster - I wasn't trying to be derogatory about the 'elderly' but I know as I get close to 60, that I am not as sharp as I was at 30, 40 or 50 - age takes its toll physically and mentally no matter how well you look after yourself.

I know that I would have been tired at midnight having been up for most of the day - he may well have had a nap to stave off the fatigue (I use those regularly) and was completely 100% and ready to when he got airborne - fatigue and age might not have been a factor in this tragedy but they can't be discounted out of hand just because he was a fine chap with an up to date physical.

I was more concerned by the nature of his departure - low level over trees going from light to dark - doesn't sound like someone at the top of their game.
Same age here.

How do you draw a line? You can't make a simple decision that is going to be correct for all pilots. You just have to make one based on the odds. If he wants to fly at his age let him. If he wants to fly others professionally, I wonder about that. There is a reason the armed forces like their recruits young and not 76.
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 11:59
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BHT-206B3 RFM pretty clear about operating at night..."Orientation shall be maintained through visual reference to ground objects solely as a result of lights on the ground or adequate celestial illumination".
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 12:08
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Originally Posted by chuks
...unless they can find some obvious technical defect that could have caused the accident.
I don't see a tail rotor attached where I'd expect it to be attached.
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 12:54
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How do you draw a line? You can't make a simple decision that is going to be correct for all pilots.
thoroughly agree - it would be nice if there was the ability to assess this sort of thing on an individual basis but it seems the only box the regulators have to put people in is based on age.

I have no problem with ageing pilots - I am one myself - but you need to mitigate the risks as you get older and keep to flights that are comfortably within your capability and with which you maintain good currency.

I would say the profile of this sortie would have challenged much younger pilots as well - unstabilised helicopter on a dark night with little or no ground illumination along with a vested interest in completing the flight.
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 14:05
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[[email protected];10304445
....I would say the profile of this sortie would have challenged much younger pilots as well - unstabilised helicopter on a dark night with little or no ground illumination along with a vested interest in completing the flight.[/QUOTE]
Nailed it.
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 15:18
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Just as the crash time at 1:57 am can't be right if the call was made to the Uvalde Sheriff's Office at midnight, I'm also skeptical of the mayday report since it seems to come anecdotally from the notification of a grieving close relative. Unless we hear more, I'd guess that the stepdaughter's impression was from the Uvalde deputies when they said they got a call from an aircraft tracking center about an aircraft down late in the night.

NTSB investigator Craig Hatch did not know of any ATC communications when he gave his press conference, however he said he was still in the process of collecting the perishable data of the crash in his initial onsite investigation.
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 15:49
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When I watched the takeoff video my neck hairs stood up - bad idea. I wouldn't have done that now much less 20 years from now and falling down the back side of the age curve. Wouldn't even have done it 20 years ago when I did this kind of thing all the time flying single-pilot, unstabilized night IFR. Judgement call, but we don't know enough background - maybe the pilot routinely did these flights at night, maybe the chevy2 had G500 glass, .....
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 16:16
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The ATP medical exam does not test for night adaptation reflex time.

Read this: https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...42698999000929
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 20:31
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Sadness beyond words

Utter tragedy. I'm not rotary by any stretch but this is unimaginably sad.

The cause is irrelevant now, to a degree.

May they rest in peace.
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Old 7th Nov 2018, 20:42
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From the FAA ASIAS database:

IDENTIFICATION
Date:04-NOV-18
Time:06:55:00Z
Regis#:N417WT
Aircraft Make:BELL Aircraft
Model:206B
Event Type:ACCIDENT
Highest Injury:FATAL
Aircraft Missing:No
Damage: DESTROYED

LOCATION
City:UVALDE
State:TEXAS
Country:UNITED STATES

DESCRIPTION
Description:BELL 206B ROTORCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNK CIRCUMSTANCESINJURY DATA
Total Fatal:1
The time given would indeed be 1:55 local I believe but it is five minutes before daylight savings time ends so that may be one source of error in the conversion since the Sheriff's Office said the call came in around midnight. Also, the number of fatalities is wrong but that that may be because only one had been confirmed when the data was entered the next day.
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