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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

Old 15th Nov 2018, 06:10
  #741 (permalink)  
 
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Surely the 'pause' in the climb is as a result of selecting an accelerative attitude at TDP.

Also, if you think you have a control problem at night at a critical stage of flight, I would suggest the natural reaction would be to get away from the ground while you sort it out.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 06:17
  #742 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Surely the 'pause' in the climb is as a result of selecting an accelerative attitude at TDP.

Also, if you think you have a control problem at night at a critical stage of flight, I would suggest the natural reaction would be to get away from the ground while you sort it out.
From the preliminary AAIB report:
"The helicopter then began a climb on a rearward flight path2 while maintaining a northerly heading. Gear retraction started as it passed through a height of approximately 320 ft. The climb then paused. Heading changes consistent with the direction of pedal movements were recorded initially, then the helicopter entered an increasing right yaw contrary to the pilot’s left pedal command. The helicopter reached a radio height3 of approximately 430 ft before descending with a high rotation rate."

There seems to have been an increase of 110 feet RADALT after the TR event. However, as someone pointed out, the surface beneath the helicopter is not even so it could also be a Red Herring.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 06:35
  #743 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY
From the preliminary AAIB report:
"The helicopter then began a climb on a rearward flight path2 while maintaining a northerly heading. Gear retraction started as it passed through a height of approximately 320 ft. The climb then paused. Heading changes consistent with the direction of pedal movements were recorded initially, then the helicopter entered an increasing right yaw contrary to the pilot’s left pedal command. The helicopter reached a radio height3 of approximately 430 ft before descending with a high rotation rate."

There seems to have been an increase of 110 feet RADALT after the TR event. However, as someone pointed out, the surface beneath the helicopter is not even so it could also be a Red Herring.
Could just be the drop off of the stadium
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 10:50
  #744 (permalink)  
 
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1837 Arrived at the helicopter, 1844 lifted off - 7 minutes for a walk around, climb in, pre-start checks, 2x engine start and lift off.

At the ground, Started up (power on probably to start the system recording) at 1934 and lifted off at 1937.

Seems to have been in a bit of a hurry?
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 11:24
  #745 (permalink)  
 
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Three minutes to start up and reach Take Off RPM.....not a rush job in modern Twins with FADEC's.

As the Pilot had flown the aircraft on several sectors that day already....there is no requirement for a full run-up systems checks.

If the radios and and nav systems had been pre-tuned and set up for the intended flight....it would just be a matter of turning them on.

To make a point about "time"....I once worked a job where we had to be airborne within two minutes of the Alert Klaxon sounding....and that included up to a fifty yard dash to the helicopter.

That is rushed.....sitting in the aircraft and strapped in and ready to hit the Battery Switch....three minutes is not.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 11:41
  #746 (permalink)  
 
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From the preliminary AAIB report:
"The helicopter then began a climb on a rearward flight path2 while maintaining a northerly heading. Gear retraction started as it passed through a height of approximately 320 ft. The climb then paused. Heading changes consistent with the direction of pedal movements were recorded initially, then the helicopter entered an increasing right yaw contrary to the pilot’s left pedal command. The helicopter reached a radio height3 of approximately 430 ft before descending with a high rotation rate."

There seems to have been an increase of 110 feet RADALT after the TR event. However, as someone pointed out, the surface beneath the helicopter is not even so it could also be a Red Herring.
the report highlights the 430 as being radio height but not the 320 so I wouldn't set too much store in the accuracy of the comparison - it may be they are both rad alt heights but maybe not - ADC perhaps?

Much like the footnote at the beginning that specifies the timings are approximate since they come from a variety of unverified sources. Trying to come to accurate conclusions based on potentially inaccurate information is folly.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 12:25
  #747 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Much like the footnote at the beginning that specifies the timings are approximate since they come from a variety of unverified sources. Trying to come to accurate conclusions based on potentially inaccurate information is folly.
Agreed. The most significant bit of information is the gear being raised at an unusual point in the profile.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 13:06
  #748 (permalink)  
 
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Three minutes to start up and reach Take Off RPM.....not a rush job in modern Twins with FADEC's.

As the Pilot had flown the aircraft on several sectors that day already....there is no requirement for a full run-up systems checks.

If the radios and and nav systems had been pre-tuned and set up for the intended flight....it would just be a matter of turning them on.

To make a point about "time"....I once worked a job where we had to be airborne within two minutes of the Alert Klaxon sounding....and that included up to a fifty yard dash to the helicopter.

That is rushed.....sitting in the aircraft and strapped in and ready to hit the Battery Switch....three minutes is not.
But that was probably in the military. Many of us have done scramble type jobs. This was not, it was a passenger carrying flight into London Stansted. I will agree to disagree with you on the 3 minutes from start to airborne. But 7 minutes for an aircraft that had been shutdown and unattended for 3.5 hours seems quick to me.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 16:54
  #749 (permalink)  
 
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Extract from report into AS355 TR Control Failure over Cardiff G-SAEW, Flown by an ex student of mine:

The helicopter had been hovering in the area for about 10 to 15 minutes, facing in a south-westerly direction, when it suddenly made an uncommanded yaw to the left through some 180 degrees. The pilot immediately applied full right yaw pedal to counter this yaw. However, although the helicopter stabilised for a moment, it then yawed more rapidly to the left. At this time he called out to the two observers on board to warn them of a problem with the helicopter. He partially lowered the collective lever in an attempt to regain control and applied some forward cyclic to gain forward motion and airspeed, but the helicopter then entered a steeply spiralling/yawing descent to the left. The pilot realised that he would not be able to recover full control of the helicopter and abandoned his attempt to fly out of the situation. He concentrated on keeping the helicopter as level as possible whilst looking out through the right side window for visual reference, since he found the forward view too confusing due to the rapid yawing motion. He adjusted collective to achieve what he judged to be the best combination of rate of descent against yaw, and when he caught sight of the surface in his peripheral vision he pulled the collective lever fully up to cushion the impact.
The helicopter came to rest embedded in the roof of a house, as shown in Figure 1, having broken through the rafters and settled in a right side low attitude. After the impact, the pilot was unable to reach the engine fuel controls on the overhead panel until he had unstrapped himself from his seat. However, when he was able to reach the speed select and emergency fuel shut off levers he could not move them due to impact induced distortion of the overhead panel. He was able to activate both fire extinguishers and to turn the battery switches OFF. The observer in the front left seat escaped through his door on the left side of the helicopter and the rear seat observer climbed past the pilot and exited through the same door; the pilot then followed. The three occupants, all of whom were wearing protective helmets, were uninjured and later used a ladder to climb down from the roof.


A considerable amount of skill and quick thinking with Lady Luck for the impact. That boy did well!
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 17:11
  #750 (permalink)  
 
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Insider....twas not a military gig....but involved guarding some very high value items.

What is magic about the aircraft being shut down and unattended for 3.5 hours?
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 18:33
  #751 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless
Insider....twas not a military gig....but involved guarding some very high value items.

What is magic about the aircraft being shut down and unattended for 3.5 hours?
SASless - no magic! I think the thread looked to be going in a "Left unattended/not properly pre-flighted" direction, due to some of the stated (but not confirmed) timings.

My previous post there by the way is void as its target post was removed.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 20:54
  #752 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY
Extract from report into AS355 TR Control Failure over Cardiff G-SAEW, Flown by an ex student of mine:
Errr....he was ex-Navy!
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 00:33
  #753 (permalink)  
 
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As a fixed wing pilot, can I ask; how do helicopter pilots inspect the tail rotor and its drive mechanism on the walk around? Are there inspection doors along the tail boom to enable inspection of every shaft joint? I don’t recall seeing any in the helis we used to use for TV work. (Bolkow 105, Augusta 109, Twin Squirrel).

Given that the tail rotor seems to be so critical, why is there only one?. Would it not be safer if there were two separately driven tail rotors, or would that be overkill?
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 03:12
  #754 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY
Extract from report into AS355 TR Control Failure over Cardiff G-SAEW, Flown by an ex student of mine:
DB... can you tell me the point of this illustration?
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 04:32
  #755 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Apate
Errr....he was ex-Navy!

And your point being what exactly?
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 04:34
  #756 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Prawn2king4
Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY
Extract from report into AS355 TR Control Failure over Cardiff G-SAEW, Flown by an ex student of mine:

DB... can you tell me the point of this illustration?
Maybe that at least one of our Brethren has survived a similar situation. Its the technique he employed that is certainly of interest to me.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 06:20
  #757 (permalink)  
 
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And it is the technique I would try to employ in the same situation.
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 07:05
  #758 (permalink)  

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Extract from report into AS355 TR Control Failure over Cardiff G-SAEW, Flown by an ex student of mine:
He used to post here as "Roofus".
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 07:51
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Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY
And your point being what exactly?
How was he your "ex-student?"

We're not turning into Walter Mitty are we?
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Old 16th Nov 2018, 08:07
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Originally Posted by Apate
How was he your "ex-student?"

We're not turning into Walter Mitty are we?
Apate, As I recall I facilitated his AS355 Line Training. I could be wrong. Apologies if I used the word "Student" which I guess is reserved more for ab-initio.

I am certainly not claiming any Kudos from his outstanding act of airmanship. However, fwhy is this such an issue for you?
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