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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

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Helicopter down outside Leicester City Football Club

Old 31st Oct 2018, 09:04
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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Preparing for the worst

When teaching TR Fail (drive fail or worse) in the 139 sim I first caution the candidates about taking care not to take too much detail away with them after this exercise - the sim cannot be relied upon to truly replicate the real event. In any case, as the UK CAA research has shown, there are a variety of failure modes that result in loss of directional control. There are, however, one or two elements of the training that are worthy of remembering and putting to good use in the event that you do suffer the loss of directional control and it applies throughout the flight phases - take-off, transition and cruise. That vital action is to quickly lower the collective fully. The second vital action is to close down the engines if in transition to facilitate a pitch-pull prior to ground contact. Failure to do this will result in making the situation worse during the 'arrival' at terra firma. In the cruise, you have more options provided you have been quick enough lowering the collective and are not spinning. It's possible to make use of the engine power to reduce RoD if required but by 500 ft the engines should be off. We see a perfect application of these principles when a 139 threw a blade in Macau. It works, but your reaction has to be instantaneous and to condition yourself for such a horrific event you need to practice - a number of times - in a good quality Full FLight Sim. If the loss of directional control occurs in the hover just lower the collective immediately an close down the engines after you are safely down.
G

Last edited by Geoffersincornwall; 31st Oct 2018 at 09:06. Reason: typo
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 09:16
  #322 (permalink)  
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Looking at that, I dont think it is something off the helicopter. It is travelling much too fast and more likely to be something flying past or being blown past, much closer to the camera.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 09:29
  #323 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY View Post
I hesitate to say this, but if it is a TR Drive/Low power Hard over, he seems to take a long time to react. Many rotations under near hover power before the descent takes place.
This has been bothering me also. I have not flown helicopters for years, and the old things that I used to flap around in did not have such luxuries as an auto pilot, in fact I thought it was the latest thing when one of them had electric cyclic trim.
But it has been posted by people that should know that the A/P would probably be engaged, at least in attitude mode. The way that thing spun around it is almost like it was being driven. Surely, such an experienced pilot would have had the collective down long before the spin developed to the extent shown on the video. Is it possible that this is related to switching the A/P to full authority, or whatever the change is called, as he started to transition?
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 09:33
  #324 (permalink)  
 
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The autopilot will only have max 10% authority.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 09:33
  #325 (permalink)  
 
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As someone else suggested earlier, but now I can't find it, it looks to me like they possibly climbed vertically and backwards then attempted rotation - with a reasonable tailwind.
Had something let go at that power setting in essentially an OGE hover, the immediate 'snap rotations' would be more evident I would have thought. The rotations came on relatively slowly I thought - consistent with running out of T/R authority. Started spinning with no T/R authority - dumped the collective and never recovered.
Did we get an answer how a potentially heavy AW169 behaves in a high power OGE downwind hover?
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 09:46
  #326 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Simplythebeast View Post
Looking at that, I dont think it is something off the helicopter. It is travelling much too fast and more likely to be something flying past or being blown past, much closer to the camera.
I don't think it's an object at all, looks to be light reflection/refraction on the lens as the camera tracks up into the stadium lights...?
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 09:55
  #327 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jeepys View Post
The autopilot will only have max 10% authority.
Ok, assuming that it is not faulty.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 10:15
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flying Bull View Post
If you watch the video you can see something fast going down from the helicopter to the lower left in the video. Seconds after that the turn starts
Part from helicopter?

It's an insect lit by the stadium lights. Another at 1:02. You see them all the time on CCTV. Really annoying when they trigger motion sensors to start recording... Already discussed...
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 10:33
  #329 (permalink)  
 
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It's an insect lit by the stadium lights.
Playing that video at quarter speed, I respectfully disagree. The insects on my CCTV don't behave in that manner and there is always more of them. That 'particle' initially appears suddenly at 46.2s at the back of the aircraft, disappears for less than 100th of a second then appears again moving at speed to the left and down. Looking at what is happening to the aircraft and admittedly drawing a speculative conclusion of where the problem might lie, one has to question the odds of a lone insect appearing to fly across the screen emanating from that position at that exact time?
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 10:55
  #330 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Unregistered_ View Post
As someone else suggested earlier, but now I can't find it, it looks to me like they possibly climbed vertically and backwards then attempted rotation - with a reasonable tailwind.
Had something let go at that power setting in essentially an OGE hover, the immediate 'snap rotations' would be more evident I would have thought. The rotations came on relatively slowly I thought - consistent with running out of T/R authority. Started spinning with no T/R authority - dumped the collective and never recovered.
Did we get an answer how a potentially heavy AW169 behaves in a high power OGE downwind hover?
The aircraft had a headwind. It was pointing north, in a northerly wind.

There was a brisk low-level flow on Saturday evening; I’m sure part of the reason for the highish climb was to clear all the shear before transitioning.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 10:59
  #331 (permalink)  
 
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I assume they scoured the pitch for any parts that might have fallen?
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 11:05
  #332 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by strake View Post
Playing that video at quarter speed, I respectfully disagree. The insects on my CCTV don't behave in that manner and there is always more of them. That 'particle' initially appears suddenly at 46.2s at the back of the aircraft, disappears for less than 100th of a second then appears again moving at speed to the left and down. Looking at what is happening to the aircraft and admittedly drawing a speculative conclusion of where the problem might lie, one has to question the odds of a lone insect appearing to fly across the screen emanating from that position at that exact time?
Have it your way.
Insects on my night time CCTV ALWAYS act like that.
I just stepped through the frames, blobs of light at 0.52, 0.53, 0.57, 1.02, 1.05, 1.06
Some of them flitting in all directions...
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 11:08
  #333 (permalink)  
 
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Have it your way.
Please understand, I mean no disrespect to anyone's views, it's just an observation.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 11:11
  #334 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flying Bull View Post
If you watch the video you can see something fast going down from the helicopter to the lower left in the video. Seconds after that the turn starts
Part from helicopter?

It moves too quickly and if it was part of a blade it would have embedded itself into the grass on the pitch and suspect it would have already been mentioned in the media if that was the case. As there are many similar light flashes throughout the video, I would say these are probably insects.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 11:12
  #335 (permalink)  
 
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Anti-collision light

In the YouTube video the anti-collision light is clearly visible as are it's reflections under the main rotors. As control is lost the light seems to extinguish. Is it just me and my phone?
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 11:12
  #336 (permalink)  
 
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The speck moves too fast to be anything but an insect in the foreground. Its sudden appearance could’ve been when it flew into the light cone from the floods, or simply near enough to the camera to be seen.

Some observations; after just the first half of rotation, it looks like the rotation was so rapid the resulting g-forces would’ve made positive control extremely difficult. Also, the aircraft rapidly built up a very high rate of descent. So thrust was lost from the main rotor one way or another.

It looks like the transition was above 300’, so sound would have been at least a second behind what you see.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 11:21
  #337 (permalink)  
 
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Surely, such an experienced pilot would have had the collective down long before the spin developed to the extent shown on the video.
Here is a cameraman's last shot taken in 1960. Later on an external shot shows you what happened.

How fast are your reactions to a tail rotor failure at low speed.


That was at about 1,000ft. Try it at 300.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 11:35
  #338 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Slowclimb View Post
It looks like the transition was above 300’, so sound would have been at least a second behind what you see.
speed of sound about 330 metres per second, not feet
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 11:56
  #339 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mitchaa View Post
It moves too quickly and if it was part of a blade it would have embedded itself into the grass on the pitch and suspect it would have already been mentioned in the media if that was the case. As there are many similar light flashes throughout the video, I would say these are probably insects.
When thinking about what these specks might be - it is worth noting that this didn't happen during summer. It was a dark, cold evening - you won't find too many insects flying around in these conditions.
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Old 31st Oct 2018, 12:14
  #340 (permalink)  
 
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Saw this & final report..


https://www.fomento.gob.es/recursos_...boletin_03.pdf
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