Advice needed around safety pilot

[HeliboyDreamer]

Take into consideration the following scenario.

I am flying with my colleague acting as the captain for all flights. We are both rated on the aircraft but he is rated on that type as a single pilot while I am rated as multi-pilot. Currently the aircraft is operated as single pilot only in our company. It is clear to me that I won’t be able to log any time on that type because the aircraft is operated as SP but:

1) Can I claim myself to be and act as a safety pilot since I don’t have a SP rating on that aircraft?
2) The captain (which is not FI rated) sometime hand over the controls to me so I can feel that I am not so useless. While doing this he still remain the Captain and off course I still can’t log the time in my log book. Are we breaking any air law by doing this?

[Non-PC Plod]

Please do not take this as a definitive answer, but my thoughts are:
You are not necessarily breaking air law, in that you are flying an aircraft which you are licensed to fly. However, you would appear to be breaking your company SOPs, by flying quasi- multi-pilot on a SP operation. Your flight ops inspector will probably be unimpressed if he finds out. Likewise your insurers.

[SFIM]

1) Can I claim myself to be and act as a safety pilot since I don’t have a SP rating on that aircraft?

you are a “pilots assistant” only, you clearly can’t log anything, even if you fly as a safety pilot and are paid as a safety pilot, you still can’t log it unless you “take control” from him as I understand it.


2) The captain (which is not FI rated) sometime hand over the controls to me so I can feel that I am not so useless. While doing this he still remain the Captain and off course I still can’t log the time in my log book. Are we breaking any air law by doing this?

i think technically you are but I can’t imagine you would ever be prosecuted as such (unless something happens) but it’s bad practice and I would avoid it. And it’s for sure against the company SOP, as he signed for the aircraft and it’s not an instructional flight.

[HeliboyDreamer]

Ok that is clear now, thanks guys

[chopjock]

Ok that is clear now, thanks guys

One reply says you are not breaking any air law and another reply says that you are...

[HeliboyDreamer]

Originally Posted by chopjock

One reply says you are not breaking any air law and another reply says that you are...

Thanks, I actually mis-read that. So it is not a clear cut I assume... Both responses seem to agree on breaking the SOP though

[SASless]

There are other questions that beg asking about this whole thing.

None are directed at the OP or the responses given so far.

I sit here, safely retired after a long career flying helicopters in various regimes around the World.

Someone please tell me why the "Safety Pilot" in the scenario's given cannot "Log" the flight time whilst he is handling the flight controls of the aircraft?



You can Log every minute of it.


The Authorities may not allow it to be applied to any Legal Requirement for Licensing, Currency, or whatever.....but he can indeed Log it.




Why the angst over the Single Pilot/Multi-Pilot certification issue.....why not question the mere fact there is such a distinction to begin with?

If you can fly the machine as a single pilot....you darn tooting can fly the machine with two pilots in the cockpit....so why do the authorities add that requirement on your license.

That should be an Operator SOP issue....not a license issue.

Liability.....is the PIC's burden....not the Safety Pilot.

[megan]

Why is he in the cockpit as a safety pilot? In my outfit (OZ) there is absolutely no way he could log anything.

[SFIM]

Someone please tell me why the "Safety Pilot" in the scenario's given cannot "Log" the flight time whilst he is handling the flight controls of the aircraft?

I did say he could log it if he had to “take control” in his capacity as a safety pilot

these things vary around the world, but this is the situation in EASA as I understand it. Happy to be proven wrong.

[SASless]

Similar discussion in the past.......


Logging Flight Time - EASA vs FAA

[megan]

Can I claim myself to be and act as a safety pilot since I don’t have a SP rating on that aircraft

The OP is asking can he claim to be a safety pilot. The answer is no, he hasn't been assigned that role by his company. If he were the company would have protocols in place, such as responsibilities, who logs what, etc. You are just along for the ride, bringing the CoG forward a little, reducing available payload, but more importantly, gaining exposure, insight and experience as to how a SP operates versus a two pilot operation. We went from SP to two and it complicated things no end, turning it in to make work environment in order for both to feel they were there for a purpose. Would have been admirable if it was a IMC operation, but was actually VFR. There is always the redundancy argument of course.

[Ascend Charlie]

Had a couple of instances where the single pilot/ 2 crew came into play.

First was in a SPIFR S76, for a private operator, and we flew it single pilot. However, when we had occasion to carry members of the royal family, the Powers That Be decreed that we had to have 2 pilots. We found that it actually DECREASED safety, as we tended to chat about things and people from our past, which perhaps doesn't fit into the Sterile Cockpit environment. But their regal uppitinesses survived every time.

Second was an EMS operation, again in an SPIFR machine, a B412 this time. The next machine in the hangar was also an SPIFR B412, a newer model, but that contract required 2 pilots, which meant ATPL, so my measly CPLH meant I couldn't fly that bird. I could safely fly SPIFR, but legally not with a copilot. Weird. No taking into account the 11 years of operating crewed choppers in the military.

[[email protected]]

Can any of the rules and regs experts tell me if the requirement to complete a MCC course can be sidestepped if you have the requisite previous experience (ie ex-mil multi engine, multi crew helicopters)? I have only SP ratings on 2 types.

The CAA don't seem interested in answering my question.

[nigelh]

“ But their regal uppitinesses survived every time.”
A bit harsh as they didn’t ask for the two crew ...!!!

[212man]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Can any of the rules and regs experts tell me if the requirement to complete a MCC course can be sidestepped if you have the requisite previous experience (ie ex-mil multi engine, multi crew helicopters)? I have only SP ratings on 2 types.

The CAA don't seem interested in answering my question.

Did you try their website?

Credits available for QMP(H)s who hold or have held an Operational Category to operate military multi-pilot helicopters for an ATPL(H) and IR(H)

QMP(H)s who hold or have held an Operational Category with a Military Unrestricted Green Instrument Rating (Helicopter) to operate military multi-pilot helicopters need to meet all the requirements for the issue of a Part-FCL ATPL(H) and IR(H) for helicopters.

Those Qualified Military pilots (H) described above may apply the following credits towards satisfying the Part-FCL requirements.

The following types are considered to be multi-pilot helicopters for this purpose:

• Apache AH-64D
• Bell 212
• Chinook
• Griffin
• Lynx Mk 7/9A
• Merlin Mk 3/3A
• Puma (SA330)
• Sea King Mk 3/3A/4/5/6

Qualified Military Pilots are given full credit for the Multi Crew Cooperation (MCC) and the requirement to undergo a training course before taking the skill test for the issue of an ATPL(H). You will have to provide log book evidence to your ATO.

You must hold or have held:

• Operational Category with a Military Unrestricted Green Instrument Rating (Helicopter) to operate military multi-pilot helicopters.
• You must also have met the experience requirements for an ATPL(H).

[[email protected]]

212man - thanks, I did but my ATPLH was issued in 1991 and converted to EASA 2 years ago. My 139 TR was completed SP as I couldn't demonstrate completion of an MCC.

I may have got it all wrong and simply needed to show the ATO (non-UK) my logbook.

[212man]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

212man - thanks, I did but my ATPLH was issued in 1991 and converted to EASA 2 years ago. My 139 TR was completed SP as I couldn't demonstrate completion of an MCC.

I may have got it all wrong and simply needed to show the ATO (non-UK) my logbook.

well if you have an EASA ATPL the CAA has already acknowledged you meet the MCC requirement as you cannot have one without. So the ATO doesn’t understand the rules! You may recall that some previous ATPL holders that only had SP types were only issued with EASA CPLs.

[SASless]

Can someone explain the CAA/EASA thinking that a Pilot rated for Single Pilot IFR operation of a helicopter cannot safely then operate in a Two Pilot operation of the same helicopter without taking some additional training course and paying vast sums of money for the course and subsequent Licensing Fee?

Why is that not an Operator function....train, check, and assign Pilots to their position in the Crew?

I am thinking your system is way...way...way....too cumbersome and expensive.

[[email protected]]

Top info 212man - thank you

[212man]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Top info 212man - thank you

Reminds me of when I turned up with the other three pilots from BSP as the first group to go through the S92 course at FSI in WPB. They were going to refuse us training because we couldn't show them proof of an MCC course certificate - this despite the fact that we all had S61 ratings and two of us also had Super Puma ratings, so this was not going to be our first MP type! I forget how it was resolved now.....