Cabri crash at John Wayne Airport Sept 2018
Also flying the EC135 I know that there are CCW Helis with fenestron as well.
I also agree to just press the needed pedal to keep it straight. I never had a problem with that.
Nevertheless there might be habits for instructors that always trained on R22/R44 in situations like autos where trained movements kick in.
I also agree to just press the needed pedal to keep it straight. I never had a problem with that.
Nevertheless there might be habits for instructors that always trained on R22/R44 in situations like autos where trained movements kick in.
If you like to be proactive and anticipate a correction before it's required, you need to follow the lucky left mantra (or whatever works for your particular machine)
HDG, For a start, read this (should be standard issue to every helicopter pilot):
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalap...detail&id=1127
The "Lucky Left / Rotten Right" saying was, I believe, coined in the USA, where traditionally the main manufacturers (e.g. Sikorsky) built all aircraft with counter clockwise main rotors.
It refers to a situation where tail rotor control is limited, such as a pedal jam or damaged tail rotor control system (note that I didn't include tail rotor drive failure). Basically, to safely land, the pilot needs to configure the aircraft on the approach so that the nose is "cocked off" to the "Lucky" side, i.e. LEFT in this case. As the collective is raised to cushion the landing, the increased main rotor torque reaction can be used to swing the nose of the aircraft to the right so it's briefly flying straight as the wheels/skids contact the ground, hopefully giving a good chance of avoiding a rollover. Additionally, to take advantage of the aerodynamic weather-cocking effect of the aircraft tail, arranging the approach with a crosswind on the "Lucky" side is also an advantage - certainly avoid a crosswind from the "rotten" side. It works!
However, the "Lucky Left / Rotten Right" only works for a counter-clockwise main rotor direction..... Anyone using that maxim in a helicopter with clockwise main rotors would be doing totally the wrong thing and would almost certainly lose control sooner or later.
I was involved in initial simulator trials in the mid 1980s, on behalf of the Helicopter Handling Sqn (Boscombe Down), to bring some sense to the lack of guidance given in the Puma HC1 FRCs and flight manual wrt to tail rotor malfunctions. This resulted in all RAF Puma pilots receiving tail rotor malfunctions simulator training from us. At least one RAF crew possibly later owed their lives to the training they received (their incident occurred over the North Sea and is included in the document in the link I posted above). It resulted in a successful ditching - despite the Puma HC1 having no flotation gear and I was told the aircraft was recovered almost intact.
Having realised later in my career after I had changed types a few times from aircraft with anti-clockwise to clockwise main rotor directions that I really shouldn't be remembering the "Lucky Left/ Rotten Right" saying in case "on the fateful day" I was flying a clockwise main rotor and got it wrong.
I thought about this for some time, then it struck me that the "Lucky" side is actually the retreating blade side, irrespective of the main rotor direction. I think I should be able to remember the blade rotation from the start up procedure.
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalap...detail&id=1127
The "Lucky Left / Rotten Right" saying was, I believe, coined in the USA, where traditionally the main manufacturers (e.g. Sikorsky) built all aircraft with counter clockwise main rotors.
It refers to a situation where tail rotor control is limited, such as a pedal jam or damaged tail rotor control system (note that I didn't include tail rotor drive failure). Basically, to safely land, the pilot needs to configure the aircraft on the approach so that the nose is "cocked off" to the "Lucky" side, i.e. LEFT in this case. As the collective is raised to cushion the landing, the increased main rotor torque reaction can be used to swing the nose of the aircraft to the right so it's briefly flying straight as the wheels/skids contact the ground, hopefully giving a good chance of avoiding a rollover. Additionally, to take advantage of the aerodynamic weather-cocking effect of the aircraft tail, arranging the approach with a crosswind on the "Lucky" side is also an advantage - certainly avoid a crosswind from the "rotten" side. It works!
However, the "Lucky Left / Rotten Right" only works for a counter-clockwise main rotor direction..... Anyone using that maxim in a helicopter with clockwise main rotors would be doing totally the wrong thing and would almost certainly lose control sooner or later.
I was involved in initial simulator trials in the mid 1980s, on behalf of the Helicopter Handling Sqn (Boscombe Down), to bring some sense to the lack of guidance given in the Puma HC1 FRCs and flight manual wrt to tail rotor malfunctions. This resulted in all RAF Puma pilots receiving tail rotor malfunctions simulator training from us. At least one RAF crew possibly later owed their lives to the training they received (their incident occurred over the North Sea and is included in the document in the link I posted above). It resulted in a successful ditching - despite the Puma HC1 having no flotation gear and I was told the aircraft was recovered almost intact.
Having realised later in my career after I had changed types a few times from aircraft with anti-clockwise to clockwise main rotor directions that I really shouldn't be remembering the "Lucky Left/ Rotten Right" saying in case "on the fateful day" I was flying a clockwise main rotor and got it wrong.
I thought about this for some time, then it struck me that the "Lucky" side is actually the retreating blade side, irrespective of the main rotor direction. I think I should be able to remember the blade rotation from the start up procedure.
Ow & wind towards the power pedal side, end of story. Yep reckon that about does it......Beer o'oclock 
Ow & wind towards the power pedal side, end of story.
Very appropriate and simple for sure! (For US style machines anyway.)
How does one "Wind towards the Power Pedal in a French Machine?
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That is all I tell Students & that's all they need to know, anything more becomes a complicated head-spin which ain't required.
I'm not confused but I've seen many others who have been. Your advice is similar to the almost total lack of advice given to RAF helicopter pilots (such as I was back then) forty years ago.
If that's all you teach your students, one of them will possibly one day come badly unstuck. Problem is, once you have lost tail rotor control, how do you work out which is (or rather was), "power pedal".
or simply put: Wind to the power pedal side works on all rotational camps
I'm not confused but I've seen many others who have been. Your advice is similar to the almost total lack of advice given to RAF helicopter pilots (such as I was back then) forty years ago.
If that's all you teach your students, one of them will possibly one day come badly unstuck. Problem is, once you have lost tail rotor control, how do you work out which is (or rather was), "power pedal".
If that's all you teach your students, one of them will possibly one day come badly unstuck. Problem is, once you have lost tail rotor control, how do you work out which is (or rather was), "power pedal".
otherwise a big post-it note on the forehead might also work 
I'm quite glad I never got into this "lucky left" mantra thing. I mean say you're slowing on a photo flight in the R44 and you find yourself at full throttle, but not really paying attention (as in a number of R44 accidents I've read about) you push in "lucky left" and things are gonna get "rotten" pretty quick!
As for wind. If I had stuck left pedal in the R44, I think I'd rather have the wind on my right.
As for wind. If I had stuck left pedal in the R44, I think I'd rather have the wind on my right.
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With a counter-clockwise rotor (i.e. US makes), you point your index finger down while holding the collective (like your making a gun with your hand) and point your finger left to yaw left and right to yaw right. It works and is easier to remember than decrease throttle for left and increase throttle for right.
With a counter-clockwise rotor (i.e. US makes), you point your index finger down while holding the collective (like your making a gun with your hand) and point your finger left to yaw left and right to yaw right. It works and is easier to remember than decrease throttle for left and increase throttle for right.
unfortunately some French turbines have a clunk full noise or idle on the twist grip so Your power on for flight or idle/auto, nuttin in-between ie: AS350B3+/eB4, H125, H130T2, I'm sure there's more! 
Makes tail-rotor problems a nightmare where luck is needed & following her around with cyclic during the run on when she spears off the line You'd pegged
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True. I try to fly reactive as much as possible. It makes transition between CW and CCW a lot easier. Obviously that will not work in a situation like a hover auto.
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With a counter-clockwise rotor (i.e. US makes), you point your index finger down while holding the collective (like your making a gun with your hand) and point your finger left to yaw left and right to yaw right. It works and is easier to remember than decrease throttle for left and increase throttle for right.
Realistically the power reduction needed for loss of t/r thrust will come from collective and not throttle?
i can’t see winding off throttle but not reducing collective ending well . There may be an option to do a shallow approach and use throttle in a 206 , MD500 or even some AS350,s but for the rest of us it’s not really an option. I may be quite wrong but I would prefer to auto ( throttle on ) onto a bad site rather than lose control trying to fly on .... obviously if I was over v hostile territory I may be forced to give it a go and try to keep flying if possible ( this would probably depend on the airspeed you have when it occurs ... my guess is anything much less than 50 knots it’s going to be hard not to start to spin )
i wouid be interested to hear what other people think !
would you for instance use throttles on an old 109 or 355 by letting go off collective for a second ?? Wouid co pilot do this ??!!
i can’t see winding off throttle but not reducing collective ending well . There may be an option to do a shallow approach and use throttle in a 206 , MD500 or even some AS350,s but for the rest of us it’s not really an option. I may be quite wrong but I would prefer to auto ( throttle on ) onto a bad site rather than lose control trying to fly on .... obviously if I was over v hostile territory I may be forced to give it a go and try to keep flying if possible ( this would probably depend on the airspeed you have when it occurs ... my guess is anything much less than 50 knots it’s going to be hard not to start to spin )
i wouid be interested to hear what other people think !
would you for instance use throttles on an old 109 or 355 by letting go off collective for a second ?? Wouid co pilot do this ??!!
Correct, as the initial memory action. Collective will take away most of the torque (to maintain control), throttle will take away the rest of the torque (for landing, do this prior to touchdown). If the throttle is not on the collective, perfectly OK to take your hand off the collective at the point in time you need to pull off the throttle. If you can't do that you shouldn't be flying in the 1st place.
Robbiee......perhaps you might consider alternative employment young fellow.
There's a few other images of cabri crashes and all the ones that impacted sideways show the same thing.
Pick an airstrip within reach for a +40kts run-on landing, eating away all the landing gear glide pads.
Lacking an airstrip pick a "wide", straigth and level back country road.
Lacking a suitable road pick a flat, level meadow.
This is where throttle control becomes important because roll-over dwells close by:while zipping through grass at 1 ft AGL pitch up is nose to the right (e.g. bad) pitch down is nose to the left, wind from 11 'o clock preferred.
The key is to really have a very long stretch of grass (doh) and to approach ground inch by inch, keeping skids in parallel with trajectory by pitch control just described.
This is how I have to annually demonstrate "stuck TR landings", as the ATO would like to preverve carbid skid protectors' life.
So we do a couple of super shallow final approaches to an imaginary line some 30 yards off the centerline into the grass, till full stop, w/o touching them pedals.
Stuck TR accompanied by grinding noise or worse ("land immediately"), or hostile ground (in this case less than half a mile of level grass) as far as one's remaining fuel can reach
would command an AR landing.
I'm pretty sure during the very end, right after the flare, I'd be facing ugly spinning, although an unpowered MR "should" not create any torque on the fuselage.Are these concepts about right, for a S300C?
note: I must admitt never to have been demonstrated let alone done myself a landing with the TR stuck at 100% or 100%.
Does this happen in real life?For what AoA will the TR blades settle, when the TR control rod breaks/unscrews, leaving the TR pitch mechanism "freewheeling" w/o any control input?
Last edited by Reely340; 11th Sep 2018 at 08:02.
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Reely,
That question illustrates my earlier point about training. It's also about knowing your aircraft. What happens on "your" aircraft depends on aircraft design and the type of failure. Some (e.g. Sikorsky) have a tail pitch centreing mechanism of some sort (normally spring loaded) so in the event of a flying control disconnection the tail blades will adopt a pre-set mid position which should allow a known flight configuration to be flown to a landing. Other types don't have such a mechanism so the tail rotor blade pitch could go anywhere, depending on the failure mode.
There is a lot of advice in the CAA document I linked to earlier.
For what AoA will the TR blades settle, when the TR control rod breaks/unscrews, leaving the TR pitch mechanism "freewheeling" w/o any control input?
There is a lot of advice in the CAA document I linked to earlier.
Reely,
That question illustrates my earlier point about training. It's also about knowing your aircraft. What happens on "your" aircraft depends on aircraft design and the type of failure. Some (e.g. Sikorsky) have a tail pitch centreing mechanism of some sort (normally spring loaded) so in the event of a flying control disconnection the tail blades will adopt a pre-set mid position which should allow a known flight configuration to be flown to a landing. Other types don't have such a mechanism so the tail rotor blade pitch could go anywhere, depending on the failure mode.
That question illustrates my earlier point about training. It's also about knowing your aircraft. What happens on "your" aircraft depends on aircraft design and the type of failure. Some (e.g. Sikorsky) have a tail pitch centreing mechanism of some sort (normally spring loaded) so in the event of a flying control disconnection the tail blades will adopt a pre-set mid position which should allow a known flight configuration to be flown to a landing. Other types don't have such a mechanism so the tail rotor blade pitch could go anywhere, depending on the failure mode.
What no person could assure me of is if they are designed to go for an emergency friendly "neutral" AoA while turning, w/o control input.
Error 404. Pls always copy/past the document's title wehn posting a link, as web-site operators typically do not care if their redesign #2032 has broken URLs.
Last edited by Reely340; 11th Sep 2018 at 10:07.
