Cumbria - Dauphin in the fog...
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Analysis?
Calm down. I m mainly just looked at some social media posts. I work in marketing (which I know will make you sick in your mouth) and have access to various paid social media and content listening tools that I can, and do, use for my own amusement.
Other people saw the same chopper in different places nearby and there was also at least one other video shot further along the pass that was posted to a forum and then removed after about 3 days by the looks of it.
That is all. I'm not speculating about what their unit orders etc were. Speculation and analysis of anything and everything globally to do with helicopters is clearly more your thing. You seem to be the expert in most things, so I'll leave the analysis to you, Chuck Yeager.
Calm down. I m mainly just looked at some social media posts. I work in marketing (which I know will make you sick in your mouth) and have access to various paid social media and content listening tools that I can, and do, use for my own amusement.
Other people saw the same chopper in different places nearby and there was also at least one other video shot further along the pass that was posted to a forum and then removed after about 3 days by the looks of it.
That is all. I'm not speculating about what their unit orders etc were. Speculation and analysis of anything and everything globally to do with helicopters is clearly more your thing. You seem to be the expert in most things, so I'll leave the analysis to you, Chuck Yeager.
Which Black Helicopter did they see, I'm sure that this type of unit has more than one helicopter and more than one were doing training flights that day.
Moderators can we have this thread lock as I feels it's been beaten to death many times over.
Roybert
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story Harrogate - no wonder you are in marketing..........
Agreed Roybert
Agreed Roybert
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The video appears to have been shot in the vicinity of the Red Pit Car Park which is about half a mile short of the high point of the pass and the and the Kirkstone Pass Inn; the car was heading south, the Dauphin north.
So if it had been seen earlier at the Ullswater end of the pass heading south towards Windermere, it suggests to me that they certainly turned round exactly as Crab says and never got anywhere near Windermere.
No doubt if the vis had been really crap at that point they could have said "sod this for a game of civilians" and made a precautionary landing in the car park to await an improvement in conditions.
So if it had been seen earlier at the Ullswater end of the pass heading south towards Windermere, it suggests to me that they certainly turned round exactly as Crab says and never got anywhere near Windermere.
No doubt if the vis had been really crap at that point they could have said "sod this for a game of civilians" and made a precautionary landing in the car park to await an improvement in conditions.
Avoid imitations
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I find it strange that some simply can't accept that our military are required to train to fly in extremely poor weather so they can do what others can't. As I said before, if our forces can't do it, others will surpass their abilities and one day we might well regret that.
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Shy, you must know that is BS right??? You must know!! Do you really think that any authorising officer (or any pilot with self-auth) would authorise a flight into fog/dog**** weather where there are civilians driving in their cars.... for training??? Not in a million years mate, the risk/liability is too high and could not be mitigated.
DB - I don't think you understood what Hihover was saying - a crew wouldn't be authorised specifically to fly in those conditions - they were authorised for low flying - standard 100'agl/10m MSC, got caught by the weather, turned round and resumed. If you end up below your authorised minima, you recover to normal limits asap and report it on return to your authorising officer - as I said earlier, exactly what they did.
Our standard SAROPs auth had no weather limits or minima applied to it, it was at captain's discretion (and that of his crew) how far you pushed into bad weather, it depended on the risk assessment at the time.
Our standard SAROPs auth had no weather limits or minima applied to it, it was at captain's discretion (and that of his crew) how far you pushed into bad weather, it depended on the risk assessment at the time.
Avoid imitations
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
DB - I don't think you understood what Hihover was saying - a crew wouldn't be authorised specifically to fly in those conditions - they were authorised for low flying - standard 100'agl/10m MSC, got caught by the weather, turned round and resumed. If you end up below your authorised minima, you recover to normal limits asap and report it on return to your authorising officer - as I said earlier, exactly what they did.
Our standard SAROPs auth had no weather limits or minima applied to it, it was at captain's discretion (and that of his crew) how far you pushed into bad weather, it depended on the risk assessment at the time.
Our standard SAROPs auth had no weather limits or minima applied to it, it was at captain's discretion (and that of his crew) how far you pushed into bad weather, it depended on the risk assessment at the time.
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Shy, I believe you are confusing a few issues here to bolster your case that our "military are required to train to fly in extremely poor weather"...... We were not allowed above 150ft because the Phantoms, Jaguars and Harriers were allowed to fly down to 250ft. Nothing to do with training for bad weather. Expected to launch on a "TASK" when the cloud base was 200 ft and the visibility 800m is not quite the same as sending pilots out to TRAIN in extreme weather.
You are implying that military pilots are sent out specifically to train in poor weather, I disagree emphatically.
There is training value to be had when we get it wrong and end up in extremely poor conditions, and there are lessons to be learned, but no-one departs on any military training flight with that intention.
DB - have we just wandered into Round 5??? I have to learn how not to take crab bait.
You are implying that military pilots are sent out specifically to train in poor weather, I disagree emphatically.
There is training value to be had when we get it wrong and end up in extremely poor conditions, and there are lessons to be learned, but no-one departs on any military training flight with that intention.
DB - have we just wandered into Round 5??? I have to learn how not to take crab bait.
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Shy, I believe you are confusing a few issues here to bolster your case that our "military are required to train to fly in extremely poor weather"...... We were not allowed above 150ft because the Phantoms, Jaguars and Harriers were allowed to fly down to 250ft. Nothing to do with training for bad weather. Expected to launch on a "TASK" when the cloud base was 200 ft and the visibility 800m is not quite the same as sending pilots out to TRAIN in extreme weather.
You are implying that military pilots are sent out specifically to train in poor weather, I disagree emphatically.
You are implying that military pilots are sent out specifically to train in poor weather, I disagree emphatically.
There is training value to be had when we get it wrong and end up in extremely poor conditions, and there are lessons to be learned, but no-one departs on any military training flight with that intention.
I could have phrased it better but I think you are trying to split hairs in a point scoring exercise. I'll leave you to carry on.
Shy, I believe you are confusing a few issues here to bolster your case that our "military are required to train to fly in extremely poor weather"...... We were not allowed above 150ft because the Phantoms, Jaguars and Harriers were allowed to fly down to 250ft. Nothing to do with training for bad weather. Expected to launch on a "TASK" when the cloud base was 200 ft and the visibility 800m is not quite the same as sending pilots out to TRAIN in extreme weather.
You are implying that military pilots are sent out specifically to train in poor weather, I disagree emphatically.
There is training value to be had when we get it wrong and end up in extremely poor conditions, and there are lessons to be learned, but no-one departs on any military training flight with that intention.
DB - have we just wandered into Round 5??? I have to learn how not to take crab bait.
You are implying that military pilots are sent out specifically to train in poor weather, I disagree emphatically.
There is training value to be had when we get it wrong and end up in extremely poor conditions, and there are lessons to be learned, but no-one departs on any military training flight with that intention.
DB - have we just wandered into Round 5??? I have to learn how not to take crab bait.
Last edited by Al-bert; 15th Sep 2018 at 10:37.
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Not interested in points Shy, I have as many as I will ever have.
I am, however, very interested in preserving the highest standards of military flying and in not tarnishing the reputation of military pilots. We learn through quality training and experience, not by being sent out to train in extremely poor weather. That gives a quite different impression.
Al - I agree, the Belgians were rascals. But at least they were on our side!!
I am, however, very interested in preserving the highest standards of military flying and in not tarnishing the reputation of military pilots. We learn through quality training and experience, not by being sent out to train in extremely poor weather. That gives a quite different impression.
Al - I agree, the Belgians were rascals. But at least they were on our side!!
Al - I agree, the Belgians were rascals. But at least they were on our side!!
I still cherish the memory of a joint NATO helo gathering at Ahlhorn's 60th Anniversary at which I was sent to display the mighty Wessex.
A young Luftwaffe Leutnant about to give the met brief asked the assembled company if anyone minded him briefing in German. I had enough school boy German to cope but a crusty Belgian Major, in a real leather flying jacket and with an S58 (piston powered version of Wessex), claimed he couldn't understand German and turning to me winked broadly and announced "who won the bloody war anyway"! The brief continued in English.
Sorry, off topic, about that Dauphin, how's it doing?
All the Belgians I ever worked with on exercise were a great bunch. Still in touch with a couple today.Chief Bottle Washer
This thread has had some time out to allow bickering to cool off; if normal manners aren’t maintained then it’ll be closed permanently.
Oh Dear!
After almost a week of Hurricane Florence winds I finally get somewhat normal comma back to discover a much longer tempest blowing!
Back into my Hurricane Shelter I go....maybe even this one will blow over by the time I see Mains Electrics working again!
After almost a week of Hurricane Florence winds I finally get somewhat normal comma back to discover a much longer tempest blowing!
Back into my Hurricane Shelter I go....maybe even this one will blow over by the time I see Mains Electrics working again!
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I think we are now mostly on the same page thanks mainly to the concise summaries by Hi-hover.
1. What we see in the video is, most probably, a cab below its authorised minima, with a crew electing to continue to fly to recover, probably, back to their minima.
2. Training in and for such conditions is nonsense. Cannot be authorised and crazy to suggest they were deliberately training like this.
3. A’s Hi-hover states, BAOR flying orders recommended us all to be below 150 feet, or above 1500 feet, essentially to remain out of the fast Jet Band. The weather minima for VFR flight in 318 I cannot recall. But definitely could not train, fly or fight below that minima.
4. Having “Special” or “SAR” or “HEMS” appended to your operational status provides no immunity from the solidity of Mother Earth. Extra training and formal regulatory risk assessments may provide lower operating limits. But they are limits.
5. There is no excuse ever, for putting your aircraft and crew at risk by flying below your limits. If you end up in such a situation your command decision making is flawed. I have been there also.
So in summary the crew made a serious mistake that ended up putting the aircraft close to persons and property on the ground, below their authorised minima.
This is debate really started with me objecting to the glorification and justification if such flying as “Essential” because of who we assume the occupants are. Crab you supported such a position from the outset. Now, you have finally come to accept the crew made a mistake.
1. What we see in the video is, most probably, a cab below its authorised minima, with a crew electing to continue to fly to recover, probably, back to their minima.
2. Training in and for such conditions is nonsense. Cannot be authorised and crazy to suggest they were deliberately training like this.
3. A’s Hi-hover states, BAOR flying orders recommended us all to be below 150 feet, or above 1500 feet, essentially to remain out of the fast Jet Band. The weather minima for VFR flight in 318 I cannot recall. But definitely could not train, fly or fight below that minima.
4. Having “Special” or “SAR” or “HEMS” appended to your operational status provides no immunity from the solidity of Mother Earth. Extra training and formal regulatory risk assessments may provide lower operating limits. But they are limits.
5. There is no excuse ever, for putting your aircraft and crew at risk by flying below your limits. If you end up in such a situation your command decision making is flawed. I have been there also.
So in summary the crew made a serious mistake that ended up putting the aircraft close to persons and property on the ground, below their authorised minima.
This is debate really started with me objecting to the glorification and justification if such flying as “Essential” because of who we assume the occupants are. Crab you supported such a position from the outset. Now, you have finally come to accept the crew made a mistake.
So in summary the crew made a serious mistake
Now, you have finally come to accept the crew made a mistake.
Did they press on regardless? No
Did they go down and slow down? Yes
Did they turn round when possible? Yes
Could they have landed? No, due to terrain
Please let me know where in that process there is a serious mistake
What would you have done DB, upon getting caught out by unexpected and un-forecast weather? (No smug IFR option due to fuel reserves and terrain)
Have you ever been caught out at low level by deteriorating weather and did you debrief yourself that it was a 'serious mistake'?
Now just waiting for the sound of someone mounting their high horse again...............
Crab
For arguments sake supposing there was a serious road traffic accident due to the Dauphin flying so close to the road. What would your feelings be then if an innocent member of the public was killed ?
For arguments sake supposing there was a serious road traffic accident due to the Dauphin flying so close to the road. What would your feelings be then if an innocent member of the public was killed ?
Crab dear boy.....Hog wrestling only gets you all muddy....and the Hog loves it!
