Cumbria - Dauphin in the fog...
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Crab I don’t think it is ever acceptable to hover in cloud but it might surprise you to know I have done it and for all the wrong reasons and motivations. You obviously can’t read because 3 times now I have said I don’t particularly criticise the crew. It’s stil really **** airmanship to continue up a hill into fog. However maybe this crew were noe experienced enough to learn that yet......or maybe they follow the Crab rules....ie none until there’s a smoking heap.
BTW if you suddenly find you cant turn around you have already gone too far. It happens and you learn from it. In this case they end terrorising road users in fog. I am sure they will face some Qs as to how exactly they ended up in that position. If not the Army has changed and not for the better.
How could I criticise ? I have done it myself. But unlike you I recognise and believe it to be a singularly stupid thing to do. And to be honest, SAR and HEMS are the same thing. Rapid deployment to persons in trouble. If you choose to hang it all out there to get the job done we are neither allowed or motivated to do that. I think in UK HEMS there has only been one loss and that was wires 1km from base. I could be wrong but I am getting older. How many SAR machines have been lost pushing the limits?
I say again, the lumpy bits don’t care if your HEMS, SAR, SF or joe public. The results are the same.
BTW if you suddenly find you cant turn around you have already gone too far. It happens and you learn from it. In this case they end terrorising road users in fog. I am sure they will face some Qs as to how exactly they ended up in that position. If not the Army has changed and not for the better.
How could I criticise ? I have done it myself. But unlike you I recognise and believe it to be a singularly stupid thing to do. And to be honest, SAR and HEMS are the same thing. Rapid deployment to persons in trouble. If you choose to hang it all out there to get the job done we are neither allowed or motivated to do that. I think in UK HEMS there has only been one loss and that was wires 1km from base. I could be wrong but I am getting older. How many SAR machines have been lost pushing the limits?
I say again, the lumpy bits don’t care if your HEMS, SAR, SF or joe public. The results are the same.
DB.....Question!
When you state "Hover in Cloud".....do you actually mean hover in Fog (a ground based weather phenomenon)?
When you specify "Cloud" a non-ground based weather phenomenon I have to wonder how one does that out of sight of the ground?
I think we all know what you meant....but can you confirm for us this is the case.
When you state "Hover in Cloud".....do you actually mean hover in Fog (a ground based weather phenomenon)?
When you specify "Cloud" a non-ground based weather phenomenon I have to wonder how one does that out of sight of the ground?
I think we all know what you meant....but can you confirm for us this is the case.
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Some of us also know that, that particular cab could of also - binned it at any point and pulled sufficient power - engaged the autopilot and popped out VMC on top in the sunshine a few seconds later - by my reckoning they had sufficient options up their sleeve and if at any stage the loady / DG in the back had called that he was not visual then it would of been a swift left arm movement from the rh seat - followed by the selection of the AP..... Love it when everyone bangs on about graciousness and finger-wagging..... it's not an incident - therefore it's just experience - trouble is - published on sm it suddenly becomes a mass opinion piece....
Am i the only one who cant believe you are still talking about this non event ????? DB is set in his ways and will never change so just leave him alone . We dont know the facts behind this flight , and never will , quite correctly . End of .....
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Jetscream32 - Are you suggesting that aircraft can do a perfect vertical climb at zero groundspeed on autopilot at the push of a button?
Last edited by DeltaNg; 6th Aug 2018 at 18:29.
The tale is told of a young and inexperienced Canberra crew, early 70s, running the MATO Low Level Route/Section 4 and heading out across the lower Firth of Clyde towards MoK, in a rapidly lowering cloudbase. Instructed NOT to climb up into the Prestwick TMA or they'd be hanged, drawn and quartered, they continued ever lower, with the nav singing out he could "still make out the wave tops, but go a bit lower...." A minute or three into this scenario, a cluster of small white things whipped past the starboard wingtip. There followed one of those 'Wha....?' moments, which passed. As did the rest of the sortie, with an uneventful landing at Kinloss, then a Nimrod base. It seemed odd to be told by Local to turn off the runway, stop, and shut down - and odder still when one of those green Austin Maxis came haring down the taxiway, complete with little flag. A Very Senior Wheel was driving, and he curtly ordered the two heroes into the back, then whooshed them off to the Ops Block, to a Reserved parking slot. There they sheepishly followed the Air Commode through to his plush office, where he sat magisterially, staring at them. An icy silence.....
"Were you two anywhere near Ailsa Craig, in the lower Clyde, at low level about an hour ago?"
"Er, probably.... er, yessir."
The VSW waved a piece of paper at them. "This is a signal from MoD London, from MoD ( Navy) actually, requiring the identification of whoever it was. And we've now done that, I believe."
"Congratulations. You're the first aircrew ever to have an AIRMISS filed against them - by the Captain of a Polaris submarine!"
The 'cluster of small white things', it was then realised, were the naval uniform caps of the sub's bridge team.....
"Were you two anywhere near Ailsa Craig, in the lower Clyde, at low level about an hour ago?"
"Er, probably.... er, yessir."
The VSW waved a piece of paper at them. "This is a signal from MoD London, from MoD ( Navy) actually, requiring the identification of whoever it was. And we've now done that, I believe."
"Congratulations. You're the first aircrew ever to have an AIRMISS filed against them - by the Captain of a Polaris submarine!"
The 'cluster of small white things', it was then realised, were the naval uniform caps of the sub's bridge team.....
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
No, but I may have trained them in a previous life
DB - you say you don't criticise then do so again in the next sentence.
You say you have done this yourself and learned from it but don't allow this crew the freedom to do the same thing.
HEMS is ambulance driving - SAR is often very boring searching but also plenty of flying in atrocious weather over inhospitable terrain to save life, they are not the same other than the fact you end up with poorly people in the back of the aircraft on the way to hospital.
If my rules were as you say (and helonorth seems to imply) not only would I have creamed in a long time ago but anyone I have taught or examined (especially in the SAR role) would have done the same - ergo it is another 'fake news' statement in your continued crusade.
We (RAFSAR) have lost a few over the many years of service but none fatal and none to do with CFIT or pushing on in bad weather - the Irish CG (which I assume you were referring to) is a far more complex accident than simply bad weather - and at no point were they pushing any of their limits - so, again, totally irrelevant.
no sh*t sherlock - but you haven't answered what you would do if you found yourself in exactly that situation...............
You still don't get it - they didn't plan to go into fog, they didn't go into it deliberately and once they were in it they had to get out safely - which they did!
You say you have done this yourself and learned from it but don't allow this crew the freedom to do the same thing.
HEMS is ambulance driving - SAR is often very boring searching but also plenty of flying in atrocious weather over inhospitable terrain to save life, they are not the same other than the fact you end up with poorly people in the back of the aircraft on the way to hospital.
If my rules were as you say (and helonorth seems to imply) not only would I have creamed in a long time ago but anyone I have taught or examined (especially in the SAR role) would have done the same - ergo it is another 'fake news' statement in your continued crusade.
We (RAFSAR) have lost a few over the many years of service but none fatal and none to do with CFIT or pushing on in bad weather - the Irish CG (which I assume you were referring to) is a far more complex accident than simply bad weather - and at no point were they pushing any of their limits - so, again, totally irrelevant.
BTW if you suddenly find you cant turn around you have already gone too far.
You still don't get it - they didn't plan to go into fog, they didn't go into it deliberately and once they were in it they had to get out safely - which they did!
That is perfect, you should be VERY familiar with the Lynx crash from 2011 that seen the crew get airborne after disregarding the weather and going flying anyway.... you will recall the tragic ending and how a culture of justification and “getting the job done” culminated in this accident.... seems pretty similar, no?
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Some of us also know that, that particular cab could of also - binned it at any point and pulled sufficient power - engaged the autopilot and popped out VMC on top in the sunshine a few seconds later - by my reckoning they had sufficient options up their sleeve and if at any stage the loady / DG in the back had called that he was not visual then it would of been a swift left arm movement from the rh seat - followed by the selection of the AP..... Love it when everyone bangs on about graciousness and finger-wagging..... it's not an incident - therefore it's just experience - trouble is - published on sm it suddenly becomes a mass opinion piece....
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Crab I get it.............I just don’t like it!
Without getting me knob out and waving it about.... I have done my fair share of difficult tasks, in the dark, alone (apart from my 2 paramedics), in an unstabilised machine over inhospitable terrain, with no surface lighting trying to help injured people. Not once but thousands of times. And then JAR-OPS came and along with it some new rules. AFCS, sensible limits and more equipment and some aviation training for the medics. After so much risk taken, so much luck expended, it took me a few years to realise the true value of regulation and sensible rule making.
Crab you are right, we have not done the same job. You had a state of the art helicopter (not a clapped out old 355), you had a stick buddy trained and capable of supporting you (not a couple of wide eyed passengers). You had a complex tasking and tracking centre (not a NATS box), you had a winch and winchman, (I had to balance my skid toes on the rocks to let the medics out and the casualty in), hell I bet you even had a real NAVAID (not a Trimble Transpack riveted to the glare shield that vibrated like a whores handbag).
Your trouble is you really believe you are the one, the only one who has “Been there and done that” And my trouble is, given the utter ****e you often spout, I can’t believe you have ever been there at all.
I have learned, thankfully not the hard way, that rules and limits are my friend. They exist to guide me on my way. And many years ago I recognised that my real job, that of a professional aviator, is to follow them to the best of my knowledge and ability. I don’t alway get this bit right......but deep inside I really want too. I am risk averse. I am careful. I am mindful that my passengers are victims of my decisions and skills.
You on on the other hand preach heresy to me. I will never get you or understand where you are coming from.
So I ask you the very simply question. Would you have ended up on that dash cam or would you have turned back before this option vanished. What really does the Crab think and believe?
Without getting me knob out and waving it about.... I have done my fair share of difficult tasks, in the dark, alone (apart from my 2 paramedics), in an unstabilised machine over inhospitable terrain, with no surface lighting trying to help injured people. Not once but thousands of times. And then JAR-OPS came and along with it some new rules. AFCS, sensible limits and more equipment and some aviation training for the medics. After so much risk taken, so much luck expended, it took me a few years to realise the true value of regulation and sensible rule making.
Crab you are right, we have not done the same job. You had a state of the art helicopter (not a clapped out old 355), you had a stick buddy trained and capable of supporting you (not a couple of wide eyed passengers). You had a complex tasking and tracking centre (not a NATS box), you had a winch and winchman, (I had to balance my skid toes on the rocks to let the medics out and the casualty in), hell I bet you even had a real NAVAID (not a Trimble Transpack riveted to the glare shield that vibrated like a whores handbag).
Your trouble is you really believe you are the one, the only one who has “Been there and done that” And my trouble is, given the utter ****e you often spout, I can’t believe you have ever been there at all.
I have learned, thankfully not the hard way, that rules and limits are my friend. They exist to guide me on my way. And many years ago I recognised that my real job, that of a professional aviator, is to follow them to the best of my knowledge and ability. I don’t alway get this bit right......but deep inside I really want too. I am risk averse. I am careful. I am mindful that my passengers are victims of my decisions and skills.
You on on the other hand preach heresy to me. I will never get you or understand where you are coming from.
So I ask you the very simply question. Would you have ended up on that dash cam or would you have turned back before this option vanished. What really does the Crab think and believe?
Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 6th Aug 2018 at 20:57.
Crab I get it.............I just don’t like it!
Without getting me knob out and waving it about.... I have done my fair share of difficult tasks, in the dark, alone (apart from my 2 paramedics), in an unstabilised machine over inhospitable terrain, with no surface lighting trying to help injured people. Not once but thousands of times. And then JAR-OPS came and along with it some new rules. AFCS, sensible limits and more equipment and some aviation training for the medics. After so much risk taken, so much luck expended, it took me a few years to realise the true value of regulation and sensible rule making.
Crab you are right, we have not done the same job. You had a state of the art helicopter (not a clapped out old 355), you had a stick buddy trained and capable of supporting you (not a couple of wide eyed passengers). You had a complex tasking and tracking centre (not a NATS box), you had a winch and winchman, (I had to balance my skid toes on the rocks to let the medics out and the casualty in), hell I bet you even had a real NAVAID (not a Trimble Transpack riveted to the glare shield that vibrated like a whores handbag).
Your trouble is you really believe you are the one, the only one who has “Been there and done that” And my trouble is, given the utter ****e you often spout, I can’t believe you have ever been there at all.
I have learned, thankfully not the hard way, that rules and limits are my friend. They exist to guide me on my way. And many years ago I recognised that my real job, that of a professional aviator, is to follow them to the best of my knowledge and ability. I don’t alway get this bit right......but deep inside I really want too. I am risk averse. I am careful. I am mindful that my passengers are victims of my decisions and skills.
You on on the other hand preach heresy to me. I will never get you or understand where you are coming from.
So I ask you the very simply question. Would you have ended up on that dash cam or would you have turned back before this option vanished. What really does the Crab think and believe?
Without getting me knob out and waving it about.... I have done my fair share of difficult tasks, in the dark, alone (apart from my 2 paramedics), in an unstabilised machine over inhospitable terrain, with no surface lighting trying to help injured people. Not once but thousands of times. And then JAR-OPS came and along with it some new rules. AFCS, sensible limits and more equipment and some aviation training for the medics. After so much risk taken, so much luck expended, it took me a few years to realise the true value of regulation and sensible rule making.
Crab you are right, we have not done the same job. You had a state of the art helicopter (not a clapped out old 355), you had a stick buddy trained and capable of supporting you (not a couple of wide eyed passengers). You had a complex tasking and tracking centre (not a NATS box), you had a winch and winchman, (I had to balance my skid toes on the rocks to let the medics out and the casualty in), hell I bet you even had a real NAVAID (not a Trimble Transpack riveted to the glare shield that vibrated like a whores handbag).
Your trouble is you really believe you are the one, the only one who has “Been there and done that” And my trouble is, given the utter ****e you often spout, I can’t believe you have ever been there at all.
I have learned, thankfully not the hard way, that rules and limits are my friend. They exist to guide me on my way. And many years ago I recognised that my real job, that of a professional aviator, is to follow them to the best of my knowledge and ability. I don’t alway get this bit right......but deep inside I really want too. I am risk averse. I am careful. I am mindful that my passengers are victims of my decisions and skills.
You on on the other hand preach heresy to me. I will never get you or understand where you are coming from.
So I ask you the very simply question. Would you have ended up on that dash cam or would you have turned back before this option vanished. What really does the Crab think and believe?
During the '70's I flew SH Wessex in Germany (18Sqn) then (72 Sqn) in NI before spending 22 years on 22, 202, and 78 Sqn's flying SAR Wessex and Sea Kings. I was a Flight Commander for 4 years (hence chief authoriser - but all our Captains were self authorising) in Scotland and again Flt Cdr in Wales and Falklands at various times as a Spec Aircrew pilot. We hover taxied in cloud on occasions, sometimes up mountains, sometimes at night too. It's what we did, just like our predecessors on the bloody Whirlind, (which was always safe single engine as they used to boast! That btw was a joke). I know of no aircraft loss due to this practice and the spirit and airmanship that achieved this is what made RAFSAR the best SAR outfit in the world at the time. Only the RN would disagree with that, but they were only amateurs!
So DB, get over it and move on.
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"We're in the soup, lads."
Hmmm...let's see here: shall we go to instruments, climb to a safe altitude and file or get some vectors? No, the controlled airspace!
Or, how's about landing? No, could damage the aircraft on all the rocks!
I think we should we fly at 20' down this here road in the mountains until things improve!
Yeah, I vote for that! We're a highly trained, tough as nails, SAR crew!
Hmmm...let's see here: shall we go to instruments, climb to a safe altitude and file or get some vectors? No, the controlled airspace!
Or, how's about landing? No, could damage the aircraft on all the rocks!
I think we should we fly at 20' down this here road in the mountains until things improve!
Yeah, I vote for that! We're a highly trained, tough as nails, SAR crew!
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Al-Bert, this thread is not about the merits and achievements of RAFSAR! Which BTW I have due respect for.
its a debate on the perceived risks associated with hover taxiing in fog along a public road. If you think this is perfectly acceptable that’s great but I am of the opposite opinion. However, I am wasting my time competing with the great SAR gods who think swallowing risk whole makes you all special. I will be honest with you though. I would rather fly with a seasoned HEMS pilot any day than share a cockpit with a RAFSAR pilot and their unique lack of risk awareness and to be frank, arrogance. I have experienced several RAFSAR pilots at very close quarters and to be honest, you guys don’t travel well. CRM, paradoxically, almost absent when you don a civvy flight suit. You need to learn some humility. That’s me being restrained.
its a debate on the perceived risks associated with hover taxiing in fog along a public road. If you think this is perfectly acceptable that’s great but I am of the opposite opinion. However, I am wasting my time competing with the great SAR gods who think swallowing risk whole makes you all special. I will be honest with you though. I would rather fly with a seasoned HEMS pilot any day than share a cockpit with a RAFSAR pilot and their unique lack of risk awareness and to be frank, arrogance. I have experienced several RAFSAR pilots at very close quarters and to be honest, you guys don’t travel well. CRM, paradoxically, almost absent when you don a civvy flight suit. You need to learn some humility. That’s me being restrained.
Alright Gurls....put down the Handbags.....enough of this SAR/HEMS chit chat.
I will see your RAFSAR and UK HEMS and raise you to a simple ol' wool shirted, blue jeaned, Wellie wearing Alaska Bush Pilot when it comes to this hovering in fog thing.....yer all a bunch of light weights.
Up in the Bush...we are the crew....ground, air, met, fueler, rampy, and general dogs body....oh...and authorizing wallah to boot.
Unlike the RN we do not dress in Girlie Kit and prance around like dear old Dad!
I will see your RAFSAR and UK HEMS and raise you to a simple ol' wool shirted, blue jeaned, Wellie wearing Alaska Bush Pilot when it comes to this hovering in fog thing.....yer all a bunch of light weights.
Up in the Bush...we are the crew....ground, air, met, fueler, rampy, and general dogs body....oh...and authorizing wallah to boot.
Unlike the RN we do not dress in Girlie Kit and prance around like dear old Dad!
Last edited by SASless; 7th Aug 2018 at 02:49.
Just a few musings:
Feel free to knock chunks out of each other, measure d1cks or waste heartbeats if that's your particular bent.
Edit: One of the few known facts is it wasn't SAR/HEMS so can those two groups of otherwise professional individuals stop with what they would have done, and who's better now?
- None of us know what was happening on that aircraft from a video clip; most of you are guessing to support a particular point of view. How do we know the weather hadn't closed in suddenly and they were trying to escape back down the hill?
- Who or what the passengers were/are is irrelevant; mountainsides don't differentiate.
- Do military units need to train for bad weather? Yes. To that extent? Possibly, possibly not - we aren't the crew, we don't know what they were doing or what they auth'd.
- Should crews train/operate beyond their capabilities? No
Feel free to knock chunks out of each other, measure d1cks or waste heartbeats if that's your particular bent.
Edit: One of the few known facts is it wasn't SAR/HEMS so can those two groups of otherwise professional individuals stop with what they would have done, and who's better now?
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DB - that last post of yours was wholly unworthy and better suited to a playground than a professional forum - you have no other argument other than the fact that you don't like it.
Don't start bashing other professionals on here when you have nothing but your bitterness to support your claims.
Don't start bashing other professionals on here when you have nothing but your bitterness to support your claims.