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Cumbria - Dauphin in the fog...

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Cumbria - Dauphin in the fog...

Old 6th Aug 2018, 06:54
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
height's Good - when did you last do the Flying Sups or Flying Auth course? I have done them both in very recent history and these guys have done nothing wrong except got caught out in poor weather.
That is perfect, you should be VERY familiar with the Lynx crash from 2011 that seen the crew get airborne after disregarding the weather and going flying anyway.... you will recall the tragic ending and how a culture of justification and “getting the job done” culminated in this accident.... seems pretty similar, no?
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 06:57
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Evil Twin
At least they are in sight of the ground as opposed to trying to make visual contact after having had to come down through the soup.

These (so I understand) are the people that arrive to prevent loss of life after some scumbag decides to put the general public in the firing line. I am more than happy and give my full support to them and deem any training, or otherwise, that they are required to complete as justified!
You do realise that the pilots are not ‘special’ in any way and are regular AAC pilots?
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 07:37
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Looks like press-on-itis to me.

Not the end of the world and clearly they came out the other side or we would be looking at a pile of wreckage on the side of the hill.

However, given the proliferation of dash cams, phones, social media, and 24 hour news - if you flout with the regulations, especially in a National Park - you are more and more likely to be splashed all over the internet!

I reckon they could have landed on if they had wanted to. When operating IN SUPPORT of these special folk (training or otherwise), it sometimes takes more balls to say ‘No’ than it does to keep pushing the envelope.

Still - it did look like fun
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 08:00
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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What was it about using superior judgement to avoid the need to use superior skill.

The number of professional pilots talking utter tosh here is frankly scary. I can’t talk for the military in this exercise - though I fullly concur with DB.

Without wishing to take the HEMS tangent again, the complete abuse of the idea that you can break the rules to save a life simply cannot be translated into HEMS or you become a dangerous HEMS pilot. The rules are appropriately adapted for HEMS, and lifting into the air to ‘save a life’ bears no resemblance to actions taken in the air to save your own life - especially in the case of weather when one usually has an idea what they are progressing into. If the CAA have read this thread they would be appropriately horrified at some of the suggestions being made. Military bravado bo**ocks from the usual culprits.

p.s. As someone rightly said, wide angle cameras make things look further away, not closer..
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 08:58
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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There seem to be a lot of circular arguments going on here, with no ability to come to a common ground.

I’m intrigued that there are so many assumptions being made to justify criticisms of the crew; not one of us here have the faintest idea what preceded or followed the short vision of the 365 emerging from the low cloud yet experts are fanging on without any let up, based on assumptions.

How do the detractors know there were any POB other than the crew? The rear door is open and a crewman is checking outside, but is there actually anyone else there; yet mention has been made of the crew carrying SAS pax into danger. There is no vision of what is happening after the vehicle passes, so how do we not know that it was a landing into a safe area to await the cloud lifting? There is no vision ahead of how far the low cloud extends, so how do we know how long the crew had been committed to a safe option to terminate the flight?

DB, your neck of the woods in Mil may have omitted flight in fog but some of us with wings on our sleeves spent years operating in <100 yards vis, below 200ft, day and night. Legally with full knowledge and approval of command and without any synthetic aids. Faffing on about current Civ Reg’s is a red herring, IMO.

At least we didn’t have to contend with those spawns of the devil; dashcams and smartphones/cameras!
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 09:13
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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In my time I've hover taxyed sideways up Mt Byron, grovelled through low cloud and mist in Bosnia, flown Hereford - NI at night in a snowstorm, IFR'd a road in Wales as the weather forecast caught us out and the icing level meant I couldn't go up and the terrain too sloped to land on, and invaded Iraq on a night of somewhat less than VMC conditions. Why do I list them? Because I learnt from each one, and the context behind each decision was different. In hindsight, as a young tyro, going up Byron to pick up the CSE show was daft, but "we all did it" and I was with a very experienced QHI and my horizons and capabilities were broadened in doing so. I applied that lesson in Bosnia where, after the Puma crash in Kosovo, I pushed to my limits and ultimately failed to get across a ridge line - I made the decision that the "risk/reward" balance was firmly one way, so we took our pax back. Low level, below limits, in a snowstorm at night I justified as the guys in the back were going to do a critical time-sensitive job, whilst invading Iraq was "the job" but it was a tough night (especially the USMC CH-46 guys…). This reminds me of the Wales occasion; the weather looked OK at the planning phase but changed swiftly in the hills - we slowed down, went down and considered turning around - only for the "back door" to slam shut (as it can very quickly in the hills). We came to the hover and discussed our options. The LL abort was possible, but the terrain around us meant that we would have to fly it very accurately and the thought of being close to big hills in cloud frankly wasn't that appealing - especially in pre-DAFCS days. We couldn't land on due to terrain so, as a crew, we decided to IFR a road to the ridge line in the expectation that the weather would be better the other side. We were at 10ft in a Chinook following a road as several cars came past - doubtless we'd of been on a dash cam nowadays! We reached the ridge line, came down the other side and, as expected, we cleared the conditions. My point; we did everything right in the planning and got genuinely caught out by weather. As a crew we paused, completed a DODAR analysis and came up with a sensible, workable, plan which we executed. I appended the auth sheets accordingly when I got back and we de-briefed it thoroughly. Nothing more was said. The moral? Unless you were on the cab you do not know the thought process, and a non-contextual 10-second clip does not tell the whole story of the conditions in front/ behind the cab. Apart from the pub, there are few obstructions on that route. They may also have been doing it for Op reasons - not every Op makes the news for good reason. SAR Wannabe - the only bo**cks being discussed here are massive ones, which, sometimes, when appropriate, as a military aviator you need to use….At issue here is "appropriate", and without the full context, we're unable to judge that from our armchairs.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 10:56
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Evalu8ter and Heli - thank you for bringing us back to reality and dismantling the outrage from those with febrile imaginations about how they would have done it so much better.

Why those who have never done the mil-flying thing keep trying to align it with HEMS is quite beyond me. Trying to make this event into a potential CFIT scenario is equally fatuous.

Heights Good - would you care to elaborate which Lynx crash you are talking about?
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 11:26
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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I so so wish there was a "Like Post" feature at pprune.

Eval's post is one that deserves such endorsement.

Posts such as his get copied and stored away for future reference!

Heli makes very good points as well.

On the other hand......
You do realise that the pilots are not ‘special’ in any way and are regular AAC pilots?
That mindset hits a very low note....as the crew are Military Personnel who put their Lives on the line for the British People....and that Sport makes them very special.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 11:56
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Evalu8tur I too like your post and it’s interesting the perspective you provide. This thread started out as if doing these kind of things sets one apart from the crowd and elevates the pilots to some kind of glorified status. Naturally the discussion polarises.

What I like about your post is the statements that you planned well but got caught out. Your Experience bucket filling each time and luck along with skill saves you. However. This in a valley up a hillside for which there must have been a time when an experienced pilot would turn back and not continue climbing into the weather. There are neither rules or demands that permit or oblige the crew to continue climbing into fog. This is the only salient point.

As a community of Rotorheads there has to be some collective agreement that the image portrayed in this flight, albeit a snapshot in time, speaks volumes if you understand the terrain, their training, the rules they should follow and the scope of the authorisation process.

To suggest that a military Commander would readily sanction and if required authorise flight in such conditions is simply naive.

To to this day I operate EMS and very occasionally the weather turns ****e. It’s hard to turn down a task. It hurts inside when we have too and we soul search for days afterwards. However, I am in a supervisory role and for my line pilots, it’s really important that I have the courage to say no when the conditions are likely to be below limits even when I know, my skill sets can get me over the water, into a bay and deliver the patient. And it takes courage to say no especially when the prognosis for the patient could be improved using the helicopter.

Ultimately, if that Dauphin has speared in this thread would dance to a different tune and I have no doubts about that. However, prevention is better than treatment and caution beats enthusiasm every time.

I am am not going to criticise the crew as at some time, as you so eloquently describe, many of us have faced similar conditions. But I will always criticise people who think flight in such conditions is acceptable. It’s not. It’s dangerous for both the cab contents and third parties. If you think otherwise God help you or at least I hope your luck bucket is not yet empty.



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Old 6th Aug 2018, 12:06
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Hear Hear DB
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 12:26
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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Luck always trumps Skill and often substitutes for the lack of Skill.

DB is right.....HEMS Go-No Go Decisions are not based upon the Patient's Condition, Prognosis, or Needs, Flight County, or Revenue generated......it is a simple (in theory) decision based upon the Weather and other Aviation related factors.....ONLY.

If the weather and related factors are within the published minima and crew capability....one departs.

If not...one does not depart.

In the USA...we strive to free the Pilot of the Patient Information as much as possible in an attempt to lessen the psychological pressure one might feel otherwise.

The hard part of the decision making process is when the weather is marginal and there appears to be no clear cut, easily defined set of factors that affords that straight forward easy decision...be it go or not to go.

If one launches in marginal weather over bad terrain or in the dark of night....or all of the above....and you guessed it wrong then you are in trouble.

Guess it right and everything goes well....you are the Base Hero for a while until someone else takes the honor.

The hardest word for an EMS Pilot to vocalize is....."NO!".

It should not be at all.....as there are occasions that is exactly the right response to a request for a flight.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 13:19
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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If we can cut through all the willy waving and heroic, life-saving adventures from previous lives, I think we can agree that we all have some common thoughts...

1. Not a good idea to continue in weather like that, regardless of how we got there, it might be time to land or recover on instruments
2. It is absurd that any crew would have chosen or would have been sent to train in poor weather by choosing a fog-bound hill in Cumbria to negotiate
3. HEMS, Mil, Police, SAR, SF etc have a tough role, often faced with tough decisions to make...unless you were in the cockpit, at this point in time you have no cause to forecast what was going on when the decision to continue was made, therefore, it could be considered wise to stop spouting about the organisation, the crew quality, airmanship, the proximity of the ground or road, the choices he should have made etc etc.
4. Questions will be asked. It will not be swept under any carpet, however, the results may not be public domain, and the flight may well have been justified in that set of circumstances.
5. Whatever we do in this modern digital world is likely to be recorded, filmed, posted, criticised, published, criticised, dissected, and criticised by anyone and everyone, whether they are informed or not.

I'd like to think that we professionals can rise above criticising until we know. Then its open season.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 13:43
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HiHover, you were my QHI for my Command Course......I think. So maybe you take some of the blame for instilling in me a firm sense of caution and thus me becoming a Pprune pain in everyone’s ass!

like I said earlier, I will not criticise the crew.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 14:08
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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Spot on mate��
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 14:22
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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I hadn't realised there were so many Ppruners living in Tunbridge Wells
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 14:28
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY
Crab.....I doubt very much that flying through Cumbria constitutes a viable military response. Even if it did.......never risk the cab and crew. I too have served my time, mil, HEMS ETC. There are rules....even in the military....that expressly prevent such activity and you know that Crab! But hey...let’s all wave our Willy’s about.
Painful as it is to agree with Crab..but having flown SAR in the lakes plenty that pass is well known and you are not exposed for long going over the top. Would you let someone die rather than hover taxi over there? No of course not (subject to regs and common sense). Do I want these chaps to train realistically so they can take out the bad guys before they melt Sellafield? Hell yes.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 14:34
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY
like I said earlier, I will not criticise the crew.

Part of your very first post in this thread:

Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY
a truly **** bit of airmanship

Hmmm.
​​​​​​​
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 14:58
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Bravo73 good spot and I was wrong to have said that.

Drugsdontwork......unfortunately in the HEMS world the answer has to be YES, We have basic rules for non life threatening stuff (AA) and alleviation’s from some rules when life is in danger (HEMS). For example for HEMS with 1 pilot the daylight minima en-route is 400ft ceiling and 2,000m visibility / 300ft and 3,000m. The rules clearly state thou shalt go back to base if lower weather is encountered.

Its not nice going home but I know it’s the safer option for the crew and my licence is not at risk and the insurance will pay out if something bad happens.

As brutal as this may sound, the best policy is not to care too much about the welfare of the patient unless you have safely and compliantly arrived. Care more for you and your crew.

I don’t do SAR but I find it very hard to believe that flight in mountains in fog is authorised but maybe I am wrong.

Last edited by DOUBLE BOGEY; 6th Aug 2018 at 15:19.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 15:29
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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This was not a SAR or HEMS Sortie. Bearing in mind who was probably operating the aircraft and how they are required to operate to achieve surprise, perhaps this was an intentional, authorised adverse weather training flight. Did the pilots who flew the SF around South Georgia and Pebble Island not train in adverse weather conditions?
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 15:39
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I don’t do SAR but I find it very hard to believe that flight in mountains in fog is authorised but maybe I am wrong.
I showed you the statement from CAP 999.

Still banging on about HEMS - it isn't relevant!

No-one has suggested they were authorised to hover taxy in cloud - such an auth doesn't exist in JHC.

All the ideas about turning round or landing are good -BUT what if you can't?

If you have been caught out by a local deterioration in weather that wasn't forecast, don't have the fuel to divert (and there isn't any for miles up there anyway), the weather (and again fuel) preclude a pullup to IFR, you cant' land because the terrain is unsuitable, there may be some operational pressures to contend with and many other considerations that can't be discussed here - what do you do?

The crew will have added to their experience - as evalu8ter points out, most of us have had such situations that make us better and wiser - but have they displayed 'truly **** airmanship'?

DB-your idea of the moral high ground is very bizarre

they are training....no this is not allowed
they are saving us from evil.......errr in the Lake District. Maybe terrorist sheep?
they have been caught out......agreed however they are flying over high ground so more of a deliberate act.
they are hero’s and we cannot question them.....no the boys in the back deserve better.
there are no limits when flying in hero jobs.......err yes there are.
pilots can be authorised to do this.......no they can’t.
They are very experienced......come on! We know that to be highly unlikely in today’s budget constraints.
no-one has said anything like what you have written here.

You still seem to be determined to hang, draw and quarter this crew when you still don't know their composition, task or circumstances, you only criticise from your HEMS perspective - if this was a HEMS aircraft I would completely agree with you but it isn't and I don't.

If you don't think there may be situations where hovertaxying in cloud is EVER an acceptable risk then it explains why you aren't still in the military or have ever done SAR.
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