Cumbria - Dauphin in the fog...
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Nobody was inside the Dolphin. Nobody know why he fly so low in bad weather, nobody know which kind of flight equipment was on board on...
Everybody have to have to be a judge, but only when he will be God
Everybody have to have to be a judge, but only when he will be God
Air police, the fenestron is 10 feet off the deck.
I mentioned the terrain earlier - if you have flown there you will know that finding a suitable area to put down is tricky, especially in an aircraft that is limited to firm surfaces - it doesn't like boggy, rocky ground as there is little clearance underneath it.
It’s aviation insanity
Shy - DBs mention of JSP318 shows how out of touch he is with military flying.
DB, if your only memories of mil flying are with the AAC in the 80s then you might be surprised to know that things have moved on quite significantly since then.
I think we are missing the bigger issue here and watching that video has really troubled me... the cyclist out in that weather, he must be nuts!!!
Then it looks like the dash cam is inside a Nissan Juke. A NISSAN JUKE!!!! What is this world coming to.
Then it looks like the dash cam is inside a Nissan Juke. A NISSAN JUKE!!!! What is this world coming to.
Last edited by helicrazi; 5th Aug 2018 at 05:00.
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Helicrazi, good points, an Japanese car and a MAMIL. Both out in fog. What were they thinking.
Clockwork Mouse. With 17k in my logbook and not so much as a scratch of paint, HEMS, MIL, POLICE, HOFO I feel very comfortable that my inner “Traffic Warden” has served me well.
SAS I was also in Sunburgh on the S61 as P2 at the tail end of the Decca ERA. No ILS and a ARA /Decca procedure into the bay onto the end of r/w 27. MDH was “waves visible” and DR when we saw the lights. No other options as the wx changed quickly and the poor old girl had no fuel for anywhere else. This was safe because we were over the sea until the end of the r/w. Protected by the black and white storm scope with the dodgy NDB for backup/confirmation. And we have flown that route so many times we could do it in our sleep.
i would take that any day over an unforced error that sees me hover taxing in fog over unknown terrain in circumstances where an ASDA HGV might become an obstacle or the bloody wires loom out of the gloom to tear my helicopter apart.
CRAB I do not need to add any eggs to the pudding. There are hundreds of Rotorheads who have creamed themselves in CFIT. Some of which were doing oh so important tasks even your precious SAR.
I wonder if you would defend a pilot who chooses to fly along a public road at 10 feet in 8/8 VMC?
Clockwork Mouse. With 17k in my logbook and not so much as a scratch of paint, HEMS, MIL, POLICE, HOFO I feel very comfortable that my inner “Traffic Warden” has served me well.
SAS I was also in Sunburgh on the S61 as P2 at the tail end of the Decca ERA. No ILS and a ARA /Decca procedure into the bay onto the end of r/w 27. MDH was “waves visible” and DR when we saw the lights. No other options as the wx changed quickly and the poor old girl had no fuel for anywhere else. This was safe because we were over the sea until the end of the r/w. Protected by the black and white storm scope with the dodgy NDB for backup/confirmation. And we have flown that route so many times we could do it in our sleep.
i would take that any day over an unforced error that sees me hover taxing in fog over unknown terrain in circumstances where an ASDA HGV might become an obstacle or the bloody wires loom out of the gloom to tear my helicopter apart.
CRAB I do not need to add any eggs to the pudding. There are hundreds of Rotorheads who have creamed themselves in CFIT. Some of which were doing oh so important tasks even your precious SAR.
I wonder if you would defend a pilot who chooses to fly along a public road at 10 feet in 8/8 VMC?
So it has been established that it is a MIL aircraft?
Which if any part of UK ANO or SERA would apply?
Nothing to see here.
Which if any part of UK ANO or SERA would apply?
Nothing to see here.
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There is a basic misconception here about risk in the military. Double Bogey is adamant that the operation of the Dauphin in hover taxiing in fog beside a public road was reckless and indefensible, mainly because it was something he would never do himself, despite his 17k hours of safe flying.
I will concede it was risky, but then so is most military flying, and we can reasonably assume that this aircraft was military operated. We can only assume that the crew and passengers, if there were any, were fully aware of the risks and were comfortable to accept them.
What constitutes acceptable risk in this type of situation? It must include the capability of the equipment, eg the aircraft and its systems, the training, knowledge and experience of the crew, and the nature of the mission. The more important the mission, the greater the risk acceptance.
We do not know anything about these factors in this case. However, if the operators of this aircraft are who most of us think they are, I am confident that their professionalism and access to resources and technology not normally available to the rest of us means that the risk was carefully assessed and accepted as necessary and manageable.
It is a blinkered, black and white, catch-all, traffic warden mentality that leads to some posters expressing righteous outrage at this incident without knowledge of any relevant facts.
I will concede it was risky, but then so is most military flying, and we can reasonably assume that this aircraft was military operated. We can only assume that the crew and passengers, if there were any, were fully aware of the risks and were comfortable to accept them.
What constitutes acceptable risk in this type of situation? It must include the capability of the equipment, eg the aircraft and its systems, the training, knowledge and experience of the crew, and the nature of the mission. The more important the mission, the greater the risk acceptance.
We do not know anything about these factors in this case. However, if the operators of this aircraft are who most of us think they are, I am confident that their professionalism and access to resources and technology not normally available to the rest of us means that the risk was carefully assessed and accepted as necessary and manageable.
It is a blinkered, black and white, catch-all, traffic warden mentality that leads to some posters expressing righteous outrage at this incident without knowledge of any relevant facts.
At least they are in sight of the ground as opposed to trying to make visual contact after having had to come down through the soup.
These (so I understand) are the people that arrive to prevent loss of life after some scumbag decides to put the general public in the firing line. I am more than happy and give my full support to them and deem any training, or otherwise, that they are required to complete as justified!
These (so I understand) are the people that arrive to prevent loss of life after some scumbag decides to put the general public in the firing line. I am more than happy and give my full support to them and deem any training, or otherwise, that they are required to complete as justified!
Have you managed to determine how many BAOR-based Army helicopters have been lost due to poor weather yet?
BTW, 'Sooty's' supervisory-chain should have chopped his legs off long before he had a hand in writing-off '321, and techically BATUS is in Canada.
Last edited by diginagain; 5th Aug 2018 at 11:52.
I shall not accuse you of being a Prick....but you do miss the point as well.
I was merely pointing out that even in the Civvie side of helicopter aviation IN THE UK....(and confirmed by your post) we quite happily (as in routinely) operated in exactly the same kind of weather conditions while engaged in Public Transport.
You gloss over the fact that it was not uncommon for there to be a string of aircraft hovering across terrain seeking a flat bit of concrete with some white lettering on it.....and we did that repeatedly as a common practice.
When I taxied up to the wrong Dispersal having become lost ON the airport....to be greeted by a bearded, pipe smoking fellow wearing full British Helicopters garb to include the Bus Driver's Hat.....who informed me I had found the wrong nest but no. problem Tea was available while I waited for the Tractor.
Sorry...but we did operate in some really bad weather....as a practice.
I suggest there is not much difference between what we did....and what is seen in that video.
In the S-58T...we were doing that single pilot unlike the 61 where you had two pilots.....even at Night.
So in conclusion.....I am not bothered one bit by what was seen in the video.
The crew knew the area, there where no wires, the aircraft was off to the side of the roadway, and other than where it was located the same "risk" to the public could have occurred at any Dispersal with a car park or roadway on the other side of the Security Fence.
If that aircraft was a civilian public transport flight (but it appears not to be).....HEMS, Utility Operation, or privately owned....then different rules pertain and I would have objections as I would like to think we have progressed from "the good old days".
Over the years I have learned your Heart is in the right place but sometimes you tend to hold forth a bit loudly.
Think about it.....we done it too.
Should we be too vocal in our concerns about safety when we see others doing the same thing in a careful professional manner.
I was merely pointing out that even in the Civvie side of helicopter aviation IN THE UK....(and confirmed by your post) we quite happily (as in routinely) operated in exactly the same kind of weather conditions while engaged in Public Transport.
You gloss over the fact that it was not uncommon for there to be a string of aircraft hovering across terrain seeking a flat bit of concrete with some white lettering on it.....and we did that repeatedly as a common practice.
When I taxied up to the wrong Dispersal having become lost ON the airport....to be greeted by a bearded, pipe smoking fellow wearing full British Helicopters garb to include the Bus Driver's Hat.....who informed me I had found the wrong nest but no. problem Tea was available while I waited for the Tractor.
Sorry...but we did operate in some really bad weather....as a practice.
I suggest there is not much difference between what we did....and what is seen in that video.
In the S-58T...we were doing that single pilot unlike the 61 where you had two pilots.....even at Night.
So in conclusion.....I am not bothered one bit by what was seen in the video.
The crew knew the area, there where no wires, the aircraft was off to the side of the roadway, and other than where it was located the same "risk" to the public could have occurred at any Dispersal with a car park or roadway on the other side of the Security Fence.
If that aircraft was a civilian public transport flight (but it appears not to be).....HEMS, Utility Operation, or privately owned....then different rules pertain and I would have objections as I would like to think we have progressed from "the good old days".
Over the years I have learned your Heart is in the right place but sometimes you tend to hold forth a bit loudly.
Think about it.....we done it too.
Should we be too vocal in our concerns about safety when we see others doing the same thing in a careful professional manner.
Some years ago an ex-oppo of mine told me about doing exactly the same thing as this in Mk4 Seakings - specifically hover-taxiing up the Pyg track in order to reach the summit of Snowdon in cloud as a training exercise. Apparently it was not thought particularly exceptional, but then it was the Navy.
I expressed surprise that even the Junglies would do this but he assured me that although hairy at first exposure (with an instructor) it was not all that hazardous as long as you remembered your escape routes at all times and flew slow enough to retain visal reference of the ground. I asked about hikers and he just grinned. Scared the s*** out of a few of those, he replied. I think he added that it prepared him for the conditions he encountered along the Basra Road shortly afterwards.
I wonder how uncommon this really is. Rather like SASless I'm sure many of us have moved aircraft on an airfield in bad vis. This is just an extension of that done off airfield by specifically trained military specialists for a specific type of task that most mil flyers don't go anywhere near. That's the point - specialists. Training for their specialisation. LIke mine clearance divers or HALO jumpers or smashing 20 tons of fast jet into a 600ft moving deck in fog iat 140Kts - or any of the other crazy things some get up to in the military.
Simply because there is a need for it.
I expressed surprise that even the Junglies would do this but he assured me that although hairy at first exposure (with an instructor) it was not all that hazardous as long as you remembered your escape routes at all times and flew slow enough to retain visal reference of the ground. I asked about hikers and he just grinned. Scared the s*** out of a few of those, he replied. I think he added that it prepared him for the conditions he encountered along the Basra Road shortly afterwards.
I wonder how uncommon this really is. Rather like SASless I'm sure many of us have moved aircraft on an airfield in bad vis. This is just an extension of that done off airfield by specifically trained military specialists for a specific type of task that most mil flyers don't go anywhere near. That's the point - specialists. Training for their specialisation. LIke mine clearance divers or HALO jumpers or smashing 20 tons of fast jet into a 600ft moving deck in fog iat 140Kts - or any of the other crazy things some get up to in the military.
Simply because there is a need for it.
Fly in the Aleutian Islands and the part of Alaska that runs out to them....and say you never did this kind of flying!
Or, in the Pacific Northwest....and earn a living flying helicopters.
Or dusty season in Africa....amongst many places in the World.
This is what makes helicopter flying different.
Doing it safely....is the stumbling block.
In the Pacific Northwest and Alaska the exercise is known as "Hover- Mosey"....you hover a bit....mosey along a bit...hover a bit....repeat....till you get to where you can fly.
Or, in the Pacific Northwest....and earn a living flying helicopters.
Or dusty season in Africa....amongst many places in the World.
This is what makes helicopter flying different.
Doing it safely....is the stumbling block.
In the Pacific Northwest and Alaska the exercise is known as "Hover- Mosey"....you hover a bit....mosey along a bit...hover a bit....repeat....till you get to where you can fly.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
No, but I may have trained them in a previous life
DB - you do need a bit of a reality check with regard to what was being done here - you have absolutely no idea what task they were on.
HEMS might not be allowed to do this but UKSAR operate under EASA rules, under CAP 999 and they would be allowed to operate like this to save life! However, I'm with Paco and, if you are the only asset, and you have the ability and training to mitigate the risk, then save lives if it is possible.
I, like many SAR pilots, have had to turn down jobs or turn back because the rescue was simply too dangerous but a straightforward hovertaxy in cloud with decent references and an escape route/IF option really isn't that risky.
DB - you do need a bit of a reality check with regard to what was being done here - you have absolutely no idea what task they were on.
HEMS might not be allowed to do this but UKSAR operate under EASA rules, under CAP 999 and they would be allowed to operate like this to save life! However, I'm with Paco and, if you are the only asset, and you have the ability and training to mitigate the risk, then save lives if it is possible.
I, like many SAR pilots, have had to turn down jobs or turn back because the rescue was simply too dangerous but a straightforward hovertaxy in cloud with decent references and an escape route/IF option really isn't that risky.
And a lot less risky with many of the modern types with excellent positioning systems, advanced autopilot functions and deicing providing more and safer options. These have certainly brought changes in SAR and this role will be little different.
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Incorrect! Absolute disregard for the rules that govern military flying. Nowhere does it state that flying in fog is legal, REGARDLESS of the reasons. If encountering poor weather, ‘slow down, go down, turn around or land!’ No exceptions!
I have 2,500 military flying hrs of which approx half are operational both in NI and further afield working with similar units. NEVER have we had to or been coerced into doing something similar. The rules are clear.
I have 2,500 military flying hrs of which approx half are operational both in NI and further afield working with similar units. NEVER have we had to or been coerced into doing something similar. The rules are clear.
Avoid imitations
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An ex-colleague of mine received a bravery award for hover taxing in fog up a mountain to rescue a casualty. Having recovered the casualty into the aircraft from the low hover, it was decided the only way to get back down again was to descend on a reciprocal track in reverse (as in tail first, so the pilot could maintain visual reference on the mountain.
It was in the dark, too, btw.
No "hat on, no coffee" interview on that occasion.
It's a fine line to tread, but there you are.
It was in the dark, too, btw.
No "hat on, no coffee" interview on that occasion.
It's a fine line to tread, but there you are.