Cumbria - Dauphin in the fog...
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Do these guys have any form of synthetic vision to assist them flying in poor vis apart from NVGs?
Heights good - what rules have they broken? They will have had an authorised minima for low flying for the training but that goes out of the window if you are caught out by poor weather unexpectedly. They will have appended their auth sheet to reflect they broke the minima but there are plenty of occasions when it is acceptable to exceed your auth - you should know that - as long as you have good reason.
Perfectly legal - just caught out by the conditions - it happens to most mil pilots sometime in their career, 2500 hours should have taught you that. If you operated long enough in NI, you were always going to get caught out - or just never get airborne to do the tasking.
Perfectly legal - just caught out by the conditions - it happens to most mil pilots sometime in their career, 2500 hours should have taught you that. If you operated long enough in NI, you were always going to get caught out - or just never get airborne to do the tasking.
I rather imagine that the kit has improved just a leetl along the way, to include inter alia a much better 'far IR' spotlight coupled to a helmet mounted sight. '
Oops! Did I just write that.......
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Detmold cab into the ridge......I think 85 or 86.
Gazelle into a range post I think Saltau or Sennelager.
The “Sooty” incident....in good weather.
Gazelle in Battus attempting night casevac.
Can't think of any AAC aircraft lost due to flying in weather that was below limits, although I'm sure it was done at times.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Heights good - what rules have they broken? They will have had an authorised minima for low flying for the training but that goes out of the window if you are caught out by poor weather unexpectedly. They will have appended their auth sheet to reflect they broke the minima but there are plenty of occasions when it is acceptable to exceed your auth - you should know that - as long as you have good reason.
Perfectly legal - just caught out by the conditions - it happens to most mil pilots sometime in their career, 2500 hours should have taught you that. If you operated long enough in NI, you were always going to get caught out - or just never get airborne to do the tasking.
Perfectly legal - just caught out by the conditions - it happens to most mil pilots sometime in their career, 2500 hours should have taught you that. If you operated long enough in NI, you were always going to get caught out - or just never get airborne to do the tasking.
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From Hildersheim, encountered bad weather during night flying. Flew into a hillside. Not really inappropriate weather, just bad luck.
Inappropriate low flying rather than weather, I think.
Not in BAOR or in inappropriate weather.
Pilot became disorientated in marginal conditions at dusk attempting a casevac.
Can't think of any AAC aircraft lost due to flying in weather that was below limits, although I'm sure it was done at times.
Inappropriate low flying rather than weather, I think.
Not in BAOR or in inappropriate weather.
Pilot became disorientated in marginal conditions at dusk attempting a casevac.
Can't think of any AAC aircraft lost due to flying in weather that was below limits, although I'm sure it was done at times.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase...hp?AcType=SCOU
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Mighty gem, you just miss the whole point. Pilots operating recklessly and/or beyond the obvious and documented limits have been creaming themselves and their pax in with tedious regularity.
in this case we have a helicopter, flying at low level in fog along a public road. That is not acceptable under any circumstances and NO ONE can ever be authorised to train in such conditions. If you are ex AAC authorising officer you would know this.
This thread should be a general vilification of a truly poor act of airmanship. Instead we have desire, ego and risky shift all collaborating together to try and convince sensible compliant pilots that such supremely stupid acts are really necessary to keep us safe in our beds. It’s lamentable and in the words of John Cleese, exactly how Hitler started!
Recently we had a SAR machine fly straight into a rock in the open ocean. And yet so many posters claiming that such risks are acceptable in SAR or indeed HEMS. They are not acceptable. The Commander is neither authorised or trained to operate beyond the limits.
several posters also completely misunderstand the rules believing ANYTHING goes if you are saving lives. This is also not true. This rule is applicable during an Emergency Situation relating to the aircraft operation and not the task in hand.
Its actually not that difficult to get right. Fly compliant and if you want to apply your own personal limits then make them greater FFS and give yourself a margin for error.
It sickens and disappoints me that when any attempt is made to suggest compliance or caution on Rotorheads is so often met by the wannabe hero’s pulling on the other end of the rope. If they have truly been there and really done that they would know how dangerous these actions can be and how so much ends up down to luck than skills or judgement.
As a member of the public first, an ex military pilot second and a professional helicopter pilot third, I want an explanation as to why the cream of the British Army is wazzing along a public road in fog. Only by demanding such answers will the truth come out and progress get made. Thankfully on this occasion no lives were lost. Luck, more than any other factor in play whem so low in fog.
in this case we have a helicopter, flying at low level in fog along a public road. That is not acceptable under any circumstances and NO ONE can ever be authorised to train in such conditions. If you are ex AAC authorising officer you would know this.
This thread should be a general vilification of a truly poor act of airmanship. Instead we have desire, ego and risky shift all collaborating together to try and convince sensible compliant pilots that such supremely stupid acts are really necessary to keep us safe in our beds. It’s lamentable and in the words of John Cleese, exactly how Hitler started!
Recently we had a SAR machine fly straight into a rock in the open ocean. And yet so many posters claiming that such risks are acceptable in SAR or indeed HEMS. They are not acceptable. The Commander is neither authorised or trained to operate beyond the limits.
several posters also completely misunderstand the rules believing ANYTHING goes if you are saving lives. This is also not true. This rule is applicable during an Emergency Situation relating to the aircraft operation and not the task in hand.
Its actually not that difficult to get right. Fly compliant and if you want to apply your own personal limits then make them greater FFS and give yourself a margin for error.
It sickens and disappoints me that when any attempt is made to suggest compliance or caution on Rotorheads is so often met by the wannabe hero’s pulling on the other end of the rope. If they have truly been there and really done that they would know how dangerous these actions can be and how so much ends up down to luck than skills or judgement.
As a member of the public first, an ex military pilot second and a professional helicopter pilot third, I want an explanation as to why the cream of the British Army is wazzing along a public road in fog. Only by demanding such answers will the truth come out and progress get made. Thankfully on this occasion no lives were lost. Luck, more than any other factor in play whem so low in fog.
DB,
Point of Order, Sir.
The Irish SAR Crash had us wondering how a properly authorized, well equipped, and trained SAR Crew managed to hit that bit of known Rock several hundred feet high.
The Report showed the Crew had a lot of help in accomplishing that feat.
This latest flight took place alongside a Public Road Way....granted in fairly close proximity to the road way.
You are assuming the aircraft crew was in violation of some set of Minima.....but without knowing so.
According to internationally accepted Rules of Internet Debating....he who first invokes "Mr. A. Hitler" loses.
As to the rest....you pretty much are right....Rule One of the Sasless General Rule of All Flight is well known to be simply stated thusly...."Ass, Tin, Ticket...in decreasing priority!".
Getting yourself home safe by either return flight, train, bus, taxi, or thumb....is the very essence of proper airmanship.
Point of Order, Sir.
The Irish SAR Crash had us wondering how a properly authorized, well equipped, and trained SAR Crew managed to hit that bit of known Rock several hundred feet high.
The Report showed the Crew had a lot of help in accomplishing that feat.
This latest flight took place alongside a Public Road Way....granted in fairly close proximity to the road way.
You are assuming the aircraft crew was in violation of some set of Minima.....but without knowing so.
According to internationally accepted Rules of Internet Debating....he who first invokes "Mr. A. Hitler" loses.
As to the rest....you pretty much are right....Rule One of the Sasless General Rule of All Flight is well known to be simply stated thusly...."Ass, Tin, Ticket...in decreasing priority!".
Getting yourself home safe by either return flight, train, bus, taxi, or thumb....is the very essence of proper airmanship.
Mt Hutt - 1991 - 500D.
Similar viz.
We hover taxi-ed to the side of the car-park and then followed the road down, about the same distance away from the skiers cars descending as our Dauphin friend is.
Then descended in a sideslip down the scree slope - again, probably about 10 feet agl until we broke out of the fog.
Same technique when flying to the wreck of Ansett 703 in a Squirrel - except going up rather than down - absolutely socked in on the day.
The average dashcam has a very wide angle lens - our special forces driving friend may have appeared to be closer than he really was.
As a previous poster said - hover and mosey - nothing to see here.
Similar viz.
We hover taxi-ed to the side of the car-park and then followed the road down, about the same distance away from the skiers cars descending as our Dauphin friend is.
Then descended in a sideslip down the scree slope - again, probably about 10 feet agl until we broke out of the fog.
Same technique when flying to the wreck of Ansett 703 in a Squirrel - except going up rather than down - absolutely socked in on the day.
The average dashcam has a very wide angle lens - our special forces driving friend may have appeared to be closer than he really was.
As a previous poster said - hover and mosey - nothing to see here.
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In addition, week 1 of helicopter flying - “If the weather deteriorates we will go down, slow down, turn around and finally land” there is no hover-taxi until we can clear the inconvenient weather. This is how people have died. The JHC FOB and MAA are crystal clear on the rules, of which DSF have to abide.
There are no new lessons in aviation, just new people learning old lessons....
In addition, week 1 of helicopter flying - “If the weather deteriorates we will go down, slow down, turn around and finally land” there is no hover-taxi until we can clear the inconvenient weather. This is how people have died. The JHC FOB and MAA are crystal clear on the rules, of which DSF have to abide.
DB you are clutching at straws with your arguments, have related several accidents which have no bearing on this video and lowered yourself to name calling - isn't it time you acknowledged that your outrage level doesn't match the 'crime' of which you think this crew are guilty?
And this
I want an explanation as to why the cream of the British Army is wazzing along a public road in fog
height's Good - when did you last do the Flying Sups or Flying Auth course? I have done them both in very recent history and these guys have done nothing wrong except got caught out in poor weather.
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Crab Sir,. I think the boot is on the other foot. I am not clutching at straws. I have safely tied down on the moral high ground....which is...THOU SHOULD NOT FLY IN FOG CLOSE TO THE SURFACE in open flight. Meanwhile you pull every excuse you can find:
they are training....no this is not allowed
they are saving us from evil.......errr in the Lake District. Maybe terrorist sheep?
they have been caught out......agreed however they are flying over high ground so more of a deliberate act.
they are hero’s and we cannot question them.....no the boys in the back deserve better.
there are no limits when flying in hero jobs.......err yes there are.
pilots can be authorised to do this.......no they can’t.
They are very experienced......come on! We know that to be highly unlikely in today’s budget constraints.
In the beginning, someone told me pilots get born with 2 buckets. One is called EXPERIENCE and of course is empty. The other is called LUCK and is full. The objective is to fill the Experience bucket before you empty the Luck bucket. What is then this thing we call Experience. After 34 years and 17k I conclude thus....Experience is a series of unfortunate events that if you are lucky, you survive and if you are wise, you learn from. As such, an Experienced pilot has learned to avoid situations where the “Unfortunate Events” may occur. Like risking everything taxiing in fog up or down a hillside. And thus, I believe when we witness such events from afar, it is far more likely that the persons involved are still working on their Experience bucket.
Crab I admire your loyalty especially seeing as you were in the Brill Cream brigade and not the Army. However, blind faith has been proven to be flawed. What we see here is not the SF doing there thing but them being transported to do their thing. Like I said, remember the Falklands.
they are training....no this is not allowed
they are saving us from evil.......errr in the Lake District. Maybe terrorist sheep?
they have been caught out......agreed however they are flying over high ground so more of a deliberate act.
they are hero’s and we cannot question them.....no the boys in the back deserve better.
there are no limits when flying in hero jobs.......err yes there are.
pilots can be authorised to do this.......no they can’t.
They are very experienced......come on! We know that to be highly unlikely in today’s budget constraints.
In the beginning, someone told me pilots get born with 2 buckets. One is called EXPERIENCE and of course is empty. The other is called LUCK and is full. The objective is to fill the Experience bucket before you empty the Luck bucket. What is then this thing we call Experience. After 34 years and 17k I conclude thus....Experience is a series of unfortunate events that if you are lucky, you survive and if you are wise, you learn from. As such, an Experienced pilot has learned to avoid situations where the “Unfortunate Events” may occur. Like risking everything taxiing in fog up or down a hillside. And thus, I believe when we witness such events from afar, it is far more likely that the persons involved are still working on their Experience bucket.
Crab I admire your loyalty especially seeing as you were in the Brill Cream brigade and not the Army. However, blind faith has been proven to be flawed. What we see here is not the SF doing there thing but them being transported to do their thing. Like I said, remember the Falklands.
I have kept really quiet on this and have often disagreed with DB but he is spot on
For people to say they were caught out by bad weather and then to continue in the pea soup well that strikes me as total incompetence, they should have turned round or been on the ground way before that video was taken.
If that had been MD 600 , chop jock or most others Jesus there would be an outcry ( quite rightly so .)
Before everyone says how good our SF are ( yes they are and I should know ) they are not immune to doing stupid things. The death of 2 Cpl s from heat exhaustion on selection is one example, all the rules were broken and 2 people unnecessarily died.
For people to say they were caught out by bad weather and then to continue in the pea soup well that strikes me as total incompetence, they should have turned round or been on the ground way before that video was taken.
If that had been MD 600 , chop jock or most others Jesus there would be an outcry ( quite rightly so .)
Before everyone says how good our SF are ( yes they are and I should know ) they are not immune to doing stupid things. The death of 2 Cpl s from heat exhaustion on selection is one example, all the rules were broken and 2 people unnecessarily died.
Avoid imitations
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I think they should be OK as long as they wear hi-viz vests.