Russian attempt to shoot down a Wessex
Thread Starter
Russian attempt to shoot down a Wessex
A rather interesting story. Anyone know any more about this?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-ago-foreign/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...s-ago-foreign/
Events of that nature were not uncommon in that era. HMS Devonshire's Wx III was lost in December of that same year in a night take-off accident in the Bristol Channel when a short chain lashing was still attached near the tail wheel, the Flight Commander/P1 sadly perished as the aircraft lifted and back-flipped into the water. pp.
Earlier,1971, returning from the Med we got airborne in a Wessex 3 and circled and photographed a Sverdlov cruiser from the permitted height and range (which we had to estimate by eye). Every one of its guns followed us around .... I remember that it was a little uncomfortable but they didn't shoot!
Later, or the following year, like the above, I also got airborne at night from a DLG with the tail lashing still attached. It gave us a rather unexpected sharp pitch nose up but as I held it in the hover above the deck I was relieved, after a short delay, to hear that although we had got airborne with the nylon lashing attached it was not locked and had pulled free. Nobody's fault, just one of those things where the FDO had seen the lashing number clear away from the aircraft and believed the aircraft to be free. I guess we were lucky. That's the nature of accidents/incidents.
Later, or the following year, like the above, I also got airborne at night from a DLG with the tail lashing still attached. It gave us a rather unexpected sharp pitch nose up but as I held it in the hover above the deck I was relieved, after a short delay, to hear that although we had got airborne with the nylon lashing attached it was not locked and had pulled free. Nobody's fault, just one of those things where the FDO had seen the lashing number clear away from the aircraft and believed the aircraft to be free. I guess we were lucky. That's the nature of accidents/incidents.
Got my own back on a Russian cruise ship in the mid-80s in Cyprus, firing red flares across his bow to stop him running over a sailing vessel in distress that he hadn't seen!
I should think the Russian Flares would have been described as "Red Rocket Flares" no matter their actual color!
Later, or the following year, like the above, I also got airborne at night from a DLG with the tail lashing still attached. It gave us a rather unexpected sharp pitch nose up but as I held it in the hover above the deck I was relieved, after a short delay, to hear that although we had got airborne with the nylon lashing attached it was not locked and had pulled free. Nobody's fault, just one of those things where the FDO had seen the lashing number clear away from the aircraft and believed the aircraft to be free. I guess we were lucky. That's the nature of accidents/incidents.
Says someone who hasn't the faintest idea.
Shipboard operations have helicopters lashed to the deck during start and windup, with qualified ratings tasked to remove all lashings when signaled to do so by the FDO (marshaller to non Navy types). The ratings when clear of the helicopter hold up the removed lashings (tie-downs) and when checked the pilot is then cleared to take off. Since there are two lashings on the tail it would seem that the rating allocated removed only one and the FDO missed that in the dark.
SFA to do with 76fan and his preflight check
Russian attempt to shoot down a Wessex
Journalistic nonsense yet again: it would take an exceptionally dull pilot to get hit by a flare! We would regularly check out the opposition during the Cold War, as they would check us: all part of the game. Sometimes one side or the other may get a bit carried away with a bit of a beat up, but for a flare to be potted off at an ASW helicopter would be the stuff of the Line Book. Hardly a diplomatic incident, IMO.
Green flare
Came back to the ship one night in my Lynx. No reply to radio calls and no response from the FDO, so I decided to go and hover alongside the port bridge wing to wake them up. At the same time, the Captain told the QM to go and fire a green Verey from the port bridge wing, which he did without looking to see if there was a helicopter in the way. It just missed.
S76 - yes but he forgot that the FDO is supposed to positively count each of the lashings and that is a process you can see from the cockpit. So there is fault to be owned by the rating, the FDO and the aircrew.
Says someone who hasn't the faintest idea.
Shipboard operations have helicopters lashed to the deck during start and windup, with qualified ratings tasked to remove all lashings when signaled to do so by the FDO (marshaller to non Navy types). The ratings when clear of the helicopter hold up the removed lashings (tie-downs) and when checked the pilot is then cleared to take off. Since there are two lashings on the tail it would seem that the rating allocated removed only one and the FDO missed that in the dark.
SFA to do with 76fan and his preflight check
Shipboard operations have helicopters lashed to the deck during start and windup, with qualified ratings tasked to remove all lashings when signaled to do so by the FDO (marshaller to non Navy types). The ratings when clear of the helicopter hold up the removed lashings (tie-downs) and when checked the pilot is then cleared to take off. Since there are two lashings on the tail it would seem that the rating allocated removed only one and the FDO missed that in the dark.
SFA to do with 76fan and his preflight check
Apologies 76fan, my bad.
Accepted bront. No harpoon or negative pitch on the Wessex, only the lashings to hold the aircraft down on a moving deck.
Crab. It was dark, the FDO saw the lashing number at the furthest point on the deck move away from the aircraft, You can't monitor all the lashing numbers from the cockpit of a Wessex at night when the aim is to get airborne as soon as possible after the lashings are removed from a deck which is moving about. You were a crab and therefore cannot have had much small ship experience. Helicopter operations from a small ship is a team effort and again you are apportioning blame without the experience of being there. It was my incident and I blame no-one ... so why should you think you know better now? I suggest you stick to what you know and stop trying to be clever on a daily basis.
Crab. It was dark, the FDO saw the lashing number at the furthest point on the deck move away from the aircraft, You can't monitor all the lashing numbers from the cockpit of a Wessex at night when the aim is to get airborne as soon as possible after the lashings are removed from a deck which is moving about. You were a crab and therefore cannot have had much small ship experience. Helicopter operations from a small ship is a team effort and again you are apportioning blame without the experience of being there. It was my incident and I blame no-one ... so why should you think you know better now? I suggest you stick to what you know and stop trying to be clever on a daily basis.
76Fan - whoa there just a minute....
I AM small ships quailified and was the squadron QFI (RN) in my time for ship ops.
Two observations, if I may:
1. 1971 had a totally different perspective on flight safety- like there wasn't any!
2. It is always someone's fault when humans are involved and in this particular instance (or one remarkably like it), the situation arose where the rating(s) who were retrieving said lashings were not adequately trained. Two ratings went in under the disc that night - one for the front lashings and one for the tail lashings.
One of them couldn't undo the 2nd lashing fast enough - and so he removed only ONE lashing and returned to stand alongside the FDO and held up both ends of only one lashing which when counted by the pilot made the aircrew think there were four lashings removed.
The a/c launched and luckily the attached lashing snapped.
The rating was put on a disciplinary and removed from the ship. His defence being he was under extreme pressure to get in and out from under the disc and didn't think it mattered if one lashing (only) remained because he thought the a/c would be able to break free anyway. Badly trained deck crew and poor supervision by the FDO was the primary cause followed by additional contributory factors from the aircrew perspective.
PS: One doesn't need to be small deck qualified to be an SME on deck ops by the way, so go easy on Crab.
I AM small ships quailified and was the squadron QFI (RN) in my time for ship ops.
Two observations, if I may:
1. 1971 had a totally different perspective on flight safety- like there wasn't any!
2. It is always someone's fault when humans are involved and in this particular instance (or one remarkably like it), the situation arose where the rating(s) who were retrieving said lashings were not adequately trained. Two ratings went in under the disc that night - one for the front lashings and one for the tail lashings.
One of them couldn't undo the 2nd lashing fast enough - and so he removed only ONE lashing and returned to stand alongside the FDO and held up both ends of only one lashing which when counted by the pilot made the aircrew think there were four lashings removed.
The a/c launched and luckily the attached lashing snapped.
The rating was put on a disciplinary and removed from the ship. His defence being he was under extreme pressure to get in and out from under the disc and didn't think it mattered if one lashing (only) remained because he thought the a/c would be able to break free anyway. Badly trained deck crew and poor supervision by the FDO was the primary cause followed by additional contributory factors from the aircrew perspective.
PS: One doesn't need to be small deck qualified to be an SME on deck ops by the way, so go easy on Crab.
His defence being he was under extreme pressure to get in and out from under the disc and didn't think it mattered if one lashing (only) remained because he thought the a/c would be able to break free anyway.
Say What?
He should have told the truth....it would have sounded better!
76fan - one of us was qualified and checked by NFSFRW (that's navy standards) to cascade deck landing training day and night to the RAF SARF - was it you????????
Let's look at this thread according to the way that operations were carried out at the time of the event, 1971: not 21st Century hindsight or even 1990s standards.
As TC says Flight Safety was a completely different kettle of canaries compared to today: even compared to the late 20th Century. Many incidents went either unreported or 'under' reported and after event dissemination was scarce as most of us who flew military back then can attest. The RN was probably the worst since the world wide operation with slower communications was such that signals could take days to work down through to the recipients. The easy way out was to not bother to share details following an incident outside the ship or squadron involved.
My logbook shows 305 day/115 night deck landings when I left, and one or three were certainly reportable incidents by todays standards. Those up the food chain decided otherwise and it was always dealt with at squadron level; such was the way of things in the 60s and earlier 70s.
As TC says Flight Safety was a completely different kettle of canaries compared to today: even compared to the late 20th Century. Many incidents went either unreported or 'under' reported and after event dissemination was scarce as most of us who flew military back then can attest. The RN was probably the worst since the world wide operation with slower communications was such that signals could take days to work down through to the recipients. The easy way out was to not bother to share details following an incident outside the ship or squadron involved.
My logbook shows 305 day/115 night deck landings when I left, and one or three were certainly reportable incidents by todays standards. Those up the food chain decided otherwise and it was always dealt with at squadron level; such was the way of things in the 60s and earlier 70s.
What you say is true John but it doesn't excuse a personal attack when someone points out the correct procedure for deck ops.
Soft Shell Crab.....the shoe pinches a bit when it is on the other Foot!
This is Rotorheads remember!
This is Rotorheads remember!