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EC135 hard landing Chicago Area July 7

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EC135 hard landing Chicago Area July 7

Old 15th Jul 2018, 20:57
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Is an Un-Contained Engine Failure, a "foreseeable power plant fire condition"?
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Old 15th Jul 2018, 21:38
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When an engine starts flinging out high energy engine bits anything can happen. Fair chance this was a bearing failure in the engine, as there was some prior indications something was wrong before something went really wrong.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 00:10
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Originally Posted by SASless
Is an Un-Contained Engine Failure, a "foreseeable power plant fire condition"?
I believe no. By inference, FAA FAR Part 33 engine certification specifies that an engine must be capable of containing damage without catching fire for a specified period of time. Additional information can be found in AC 20-128.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 02:10
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But....if it cannot contain the departing bits and a fire occurs.....then it would seem there is a design/certification issue that needs to be considered.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 13:26
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Originally Posted by SASless
But....if it cannot contain the departing bits and a fire occurs.....then it would seem there is a design/certification issue that needs to be considered.
Not necessarily. The (certification) specified period of time may have been exceeded. Or, there could have been existing undiscovered damage, FOD ingestion, a maintenance error, or TBO exceedance, just to name a few. That’s why we wait for the NTSB report.

VERY IMPORTANT: I am not speculating here, just replying to your post.
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Old 16th Jul 2018, 14:10
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Originally Posted by SASless
But....if it cannot contain the departing bits and a fire occurs.....then it would seem there is a design/certification issue that needs to be considered.
well SASless,
in every design consideration is incorporated the likelihood of a specific failure.
Thats why you can buy some things as an optional, I.e. a Second fire extinguishing bottle....
Failing power turbines are extremely rare by now, where computers do the startsequence, making hot starts nearly impossible and engine monitoring with power checks, every 25 hrs or so, give an insight in the health of an engine and it is changed/repaired, well before it normally starts to fail.
Adding Nomex, heatshielded, with extra weight and maintenance needed, for an event, which is very very rare - and even, when it happens, not always kills the other engine is like putting a rocket deployed parachute on an helicopter for the rare occurence of departing rotorheads.
And I have read about more accidents with departing rotors (old Bells, I might recall Robbie break ups and the one accident in Norway....)
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 06:40
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Un-contained exit of engine parts would/will go straight through most firewalls. On the PWC 200 it would possibly take most of the fuel manifold with it as well.

I have seen an RR250 eject #1 turbine wheel blades on a Bell 206. Through the engine pan - through the boot and onto the ground. Luckily it happened on the ground.

If the bits got to the remaining engine and caused a FIRE with that one you would have an interesting scenario. LAND IMMEDIATELY but do you press the FIRE button? Not if it is still running.

Had the same scenario recently in simulator - ENG FAIL just after TDP - remaining engine FIRE - LAND IMMEDIATELY - Do NOT press FIRE as it will shut down remaining engine.

If you do it is AUTOROTATION time DUAL ENG FAIL - night time it would help to restore the SHED BUS to get your RAD ALT back. You will be busy and it will certainly get your attention.
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 06:55
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To know, where the shedbus is, especially in Eurocopter/Airbus helicopters is essential for night/IFR flying, if things start to go ugly.....
Thats why I ˋm really looking forward to this accident report with all the data collected from the bird
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 13:05
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It will be interesting to see from the eventual report, assuming nothing comes out beforehand, whether the problem that caused the pilot to turn back 50 secs before total engine failure was one that should have prompted an immediate shutdown of the first malfunctioning engine, to avoid its ultimate failure shrapnel damaging the other engine. Not pointing the finger at the pilot at all, who clearly did a great job with a double engine failure, but just maybe we should be shutting down engines sooner sometimes to minimise this risk? Clearly the counter risk is the limitations of flying on one engine. And shutting down the wrong one!
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 13:22
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Your have a valid point.

That being said....the answer might remain rather hard to pin down.

It is along the lines of "Did Grandma fall and break her Femur....or did she break her Femur and fall?".

Did that 50 Second period of time include realizing there there was a problem, analyzing the problem, arriving at a decision as to exactly what the problem was.....then deciding what course of action to take (remembering the Patient was onboard and thus affecting the decision on what to do) then considering the Options and deciding which one to choose.

Everyone survived what very well could have been a fatal crash.

I suggest the Pilot did an excellent job and deserves recognition for that.

No one is perfect....what matters is the end result where the Crew and Passengers stay with us.

The aircraft can be replaced.....unlike the people inside the thing.

Well Done! That Man!
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 13:34
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Originally Posted by rotorspeed
It will be interesting to see from the eventual report, assuming nothing comes out beforehand, whether the problem that caused the pilot to turn back 50 secs before total engine failure was one that should have prompted an immediate shutdown of the first malfunctioning engine, to avoid its ultimate failure shrapnel damaging the other engine. Not pointing the finger at the pilot at all, who clearly did a great job with a double engine failure, but just maybe we should be shutting down engines sooner sometimes to minimise this risk? Clearly the counter risk is the limitations of flying on one engine. And shutting down the wrong one!
well, fly the aircraft (that is establish OEI flight conditions) analyse, confirm right switch to prevent shutting down the good engine takes it time.
I guess the risks ******* up by fast reactions is much higher, than another failure like this one, where the first engine takes out the second...
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 14:28
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My experience teaching in the 212/412f and 76 Sims is far fewer bad outcomes occur when no switches or levers are moved.

Far too many folks get carried away in the "need" to do something and as a result goof it up.

Thinking long and carefully trumps doing the finger dash over the switches and levers.

I always advocated two immediate first steps....Reset the Master Caution and punch the Clock.

Neither of which can hurt you....but satisfies that need to "Do Something!".
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 14:58
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Far too many folks get carried away in the "need" to do something
SAS - I think FIRE comes under "need" to do something. Just aft of those skinny firewalls it is all "plastic" i.e. composite.

So is the TRDS between the engines at that point.

Carbon fibre doesn't really burn but the glue holding it together does.

Know a guy last year who had the PT wheel exit from the #2 Arrius1 on an AS355N. The TRDS let go just after touchdown after LAND IMMEDIATELY and that was AI. I think they made a mistake putting out the fire after safe touchdown.
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 22:54
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Originally Posted by rotorspeed
...whether the problem that caused the pilot to turn back 50 secs before total engine failure was one that should have prompted an immediate shutdown of the first malfunctioning engine...
Exactly. If he had a low/no engine oil pressure indication for 50+ seconds and did nothing about it, except divert, little surprise the engine blew up and took out the other one. I said, if. Just saying.

Generally I agree with SASless comments, there is no urgent need (even for an engine fire indication)...but if the engine has no oil pressure with secondary indications I'd be shutting it down pronto before punching the clock.
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Old 18th Jul 2018, 23:24
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Gulli......if all you see is a low/zero oil pressure indication....even gauge and caution light.....how long do you spend scanning the gauges....caution panel....and other measures to determine if the indication is spurious or not?

Fifty seconds is not a very long time....depending upon what is going on....or not going on I guess.

Absent any other indications than a Gauge or Light....what does the Check List have to say?

By the time you fumble around and even find the EOP Section dealing with the problem....you will have eaten up a great deal of that fifty seconds.

Do you hurry and shutdown a good engine?

Now all this changes if there are secondary indications of a problem....like odd noises, odd vibrations, turbine wheel parts making like a buzz saw but until the Accident Report lays it all out for us....we are just having a generic discussion here.
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Old 19th Jul 2018, 00:15
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Originally Posted by SASless
Gulli......if all you see is a low/zero oil pressure indication....even gauge and caution light.....how long do you spend scanning the gauges
Gauge + caution light = immediate action. No need for any further navel or gauge gazing. 50 seconds is long enough for an engine without oil to blow up, hence why you need to immediately slow down and promptly get the problem engine back to idle as the first step of shutting it down.

My hunch that engine had no oil flowing through it, and it was still producing power at the moment it went bang. I'm guessing what caught fire was the oil that should have been flowing through the engine, but wasn't.
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Old 19th Jul 2018, 03:20
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Gulli....you must be a Yankee.....as we Southerners tend to move a bit slower than them folks from up North.

There's a only a very few things in a Helicopter that must be done "Immediately" and "promptly".

I submit there was more to this Engine problem than a mere loss of oil pressure indication.

Engine Turbines usually fly apart from Turbine Wheels shattering while bearings heat up and cause a racket long before they seize from lack of lubrication and give off some aroma of very hot oil

My only engine failures were in a Chinook and a Hughes 500D and none involved a shattering of Turbine Wheels.

I did see evidence of some small pieces of Turbine Blade being spit out the front of a Lycoming T-55 after some FOD and the Hughes engine seized due to a Bearing Failure..
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Old 19th Jul 2018, 04:32
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Originally Posted by SASless
..There's a only a very few things in a Helicopter that must be done "Immediately" and "promptly".
And an engine with low/no oil pressure + caution light is one of those things. Unless one is comfortable explaining to the CP why more prompt action wasn't taken and an otherwise OK engine, apart from a dicky bearing or broken oil line etc, was needlessly turned into scrap metal. And a pilot doesn't need to refer to any checklist to carry out a common sense immediate action of reducing power and preparing for OEI when faced with such a situation. Just shooting the breeze here as an unqualified armchair investigator, obviously I have no idea of what really happened.
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Old 19th Jul 2018, 06:21
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@gullibell,
immediate action, except for an double engine failure, where the collective needs to be pushed down, is a good approach to desaster in a twin.
Any engine indication, establish OEI flight condition, continue FLYING the aircraft, which might include a turn away from hostile areas - and then deal with the problem.
F u c k binning an engine, that can be replaced.
But crashing the whole aircraft due to immediate actions without proper analysing costs a lot more, possible your life.
After a couple of hours with a good sim-instructor and a few avoidable crashes you might understand, why that is the way to go...
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Old 19th Jul 2018, 08:32
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From the Manual:
ENG OILP
Conditions/Indications
Affected engine oil pressure below minimum.
Procedure
1. Engine oil pressure indicator (VEMD) - If indication out of limit·
2. OEI flight condition
3. Affected engine
4. Single engine emergency shutdown
5. LAND AS SOON AS PRACTICABLE
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