AS 350: "Hold my beer son and watch this!"
Crab, the point I am making is very simple: whether it can be done safely is not the issue. Please read my post - I suggested without passengers!
Happy to take a dig in the ribs about my flying skills - probably deserve it - but I do hope you arent being serious. A bit of insight into how the general public, or even a few military 'non volunteers' view flying, let alone flying in small aircraft and ones with no wings, is always useful. I join others in my surprise that having posted on safety for so long you now seem to support such behaviour.......
Happy to take a dig in the ribs about my flying skills - probably deserve it - but I do hope you arent being serious. A bit of insight into how the general public, or even a few military 'non volunteers' view flying, let alone flying in small aircraft and ones with no wings, is always useful. I join others in my surprise that having posted on safety for so long you now seem to support such behaviour.......
Avoid imitations
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@shy
Although I have considerable experience of flying the type of helicopter in the video, I would not carry out that short of manoeuvre in those circumstances. Why? Because there was absolutely no need to do it and there was some risk to the aircraft - it was unnecessary showboating during a routine job.
If you see things that way - tell me what „need“ is there for display flying with „extreme manoeuvres“ (that you developed).
Looks like two measures for pilots here!?!
Although I have considerable experience of flying the type of helicopter in the video, I would not carry out that short of manoeuvre in those circumstances. Why? Because there was absolutely no need to do it and there was some risk to the aircraft - it was unnecessary showboating during a routine job.
If you see things that way - tell me what „need“ is there for display flying with „extreme manoeuvres“ (that you developed).
Looks like two measures for pilots here!?!
Crab, I was selected because of my professional attitude, not because I was prone to unnecessarily throwing the aircraft around on task in the hope of impressing the troops.
Later events (a couple of decades later) showed what can happen to a Puma when handled carelessly and without due caution - it bites very hard indeed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16227941
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Crab is bravely representing good logic. despite 'out raged of Tunbridge Wells'.
This is a tame manouver, it looks dramatic, because of the camera perspective. There is minimal g change, no stressing of aircraft obviously. I have rarely seen a bunch of supposed experienced pilots throw their indignant holier than thou toys out of the pram over such a trivial event.
Pilots need to be proficient at handling. If they are not then the consequences are worse.
(rare Crab agree
)
This is a tame manouver, it looks dramatic, because of the camera perspective. There is minimal g change, no stressing of aircraft obviously. I have rarely seen a bunch of supposed experienced pilots throw their indignant holier than thou toys out of the pram over such a trivial event.
Pilots need to be proficient at handling. If they are not then the consequences are worse.
(rare Crab agree
)
AnFI - 
Homonculus - yes, it was a humorous dig, I work in a banter-rich environment so am used to being shot down myself. A wingover isn't unsafe - hence my defence - making an approach to a cliff in the mountains can be risky and you are always going to put yourself in a position when an engine failure (single or twin) is going to put you in the scenery.
Was it showboating? Yes certainly
Was it unnecessary? Yes absolutely
Was it unsafe? No
Shy - I know the process for selecting display pilots is rigorous and the position is not given to cowboys. However, the Puma force had a horrific reputation for poor supervision and 'spirited' handling, that Catterick crash didn't come from nowhere, it was borne out of many years of a poor culture. However, you didn't answer the question
Homonculus - yes, it was a humorous dig, I work in a banter-rich environment so am used to being shot down myself. A wingover isn't unsafe - hence my defence - making an approach to a cliff in the mountains can be risky and you are always going to put yourself in a position when an engine failure (single or twin) is going to put you in the scenery.
Was it showboating? Yes certainly
Was it unnecessary? Yes absolutely
Was it unsafe? No
Shy - I know the process for selecting display pilots is rigorous and the position is not given to cowboys. However, the Puma force had a horrific reputation for poor supervision and 'spirited' handling, that Catterick crash didn't come from nowhere, it was borne out of many years of a poor culture. However, you didn't answer the question
When you have to rely on AnFI for support you know you must be on a dicey wicket !!!
I really think this is done to death now .... i think we all agree the manoeuvre was not in itself dangerous, but it was an unnecessary risk . It also makes the pilot look a bit stupid and has certainly effected his reputation and future job prospects.... so how clever is that ??!! I just hope we don’t now see new Robbie pilots copying it because Crab says it’s fine to do !!
I really think this is done to death now .... i think we all agree the manoeuvre was not in itself dangerous, but it was an unnecessary risk . It also makes the pilot look a bit stupid and has certainly effected his reputation and future job prospects.... so how clever is that ??!! I just hope we don’t now see new Robbie pilots copying it because Crab says it’s fine to do !!
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Crab wrote to shy
However, you didn't answer the question[img]images/smilies/smile.gif[/img]
That was my thinking as well!
Anyway - I bow to you superior display pilot as I don’t know anything about the RAF, as you say.
Do you know me?😳
However, you didn't answer the question[img]images/smilies/smile.gif[/img]
That was my thinking as well!
Anyway - I bow to you superior display pilot as I don’t know anything about the RAF, as you say.
Do you know me?😳
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If the pilot in this video owns the aircraft AND informs maintence of his sport flying so they can check for overstressing then all is good. If he is an employee joyriding when he should be working, he needs to be terminated ASAP. I dont know any owner that wouldnt fire him after seeing how he treats the aircraft. I feel sorry for the crews that have to fly that 350 not knowing what its been through and also for the mechanics who will be held responsible if there is a component failure they didnt find in time.
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What about the fact it is simply outside the aircraft limitations and therefore totally illegal?
yes - it could be flown positive G throughout and the helicopter doesn’t know which way up it is.
yes - some rules we would like to break because we have our own logic behind how we can mitigate the risks to an acceptable level.
Yes - if suitably trained this manoeuvre MAY not stress the airframe unnecessarily.
.... etc etc etc the arguments in people’s posts are good, in a world without rules.
However like them or not, we do have rules, and we can’t all go writing our own, however much we’d like to. A blatant public disregard for the operating limitations of the aircraft through showboating outside the governed military/display environment, says a lot about a persons attitude towards being above the regulations. For many people i’ve flown with in the past this is exactly what makes them a danger to themselves, and others who look up to them, or fly the aircraft after them....
yes - it could be flown positive G throughout and the helicopter doesn’t know which way up it is.
yes - some rules we would like to break because we have our own logic behind how we can mitigate the risks to an acceptable level.
Yes - if suitably trained this manoeuvre MAY not stress the airframe unnecessarily.
.... etc etc etc the arguments in people’s posts are good, in a world without rules.
However like them or not, we do have rules, and we can’t all go writing our own, however much we’d like to. A blatant public disregard for the operating limitations of the aircraft through showboating outside the governed military/display environment, says a lot about a persons attitude towards being above the regulations. For many people i’ve flown with in the past this is exactly what makes them a danger to themselves, and others who look up to them, or fly the aircraft after them....
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Crab, I was able to fly a wing-over as well as any other pilot. It's just that I didn't do it in an attempt to impress the troops I was about to pick up - I learned very early in my time as a squadron pilot that many of them were scared enough as it was, at the thought of a helicopter trip. A scared, sickly soldier is no use to anybody and our job was to deliver them at very low level straight to the scene of the battle and get the hell out of it. There was no place for showboat flying.
As far as your point about poor supervision on the Puma fleet is concerned, all I can say is that during my time I would most certainly dispute that. I joined the OCU just after the fatal Norway accident (door fell off, taking out the tail rotor) and the fatal Belize accident (engine failure during a night departure from a jungle clearing). Six weeks after I joined my first squadron we lost another crew during Op Agila. After those accidents, supervision was very tight indeed and OCU output standards were also squeezed very tightly; no prisoners were taken - ask a few more on this forum who experienced it first hand.
Unfortunately, after the Chinook became the SH fleet's new toy in the 1980s, the Puma fleet was pushed to the background and this may be the reason standards slipped. Thankfully, by that time, I had moved on to fixed wing and was happily teaching aerobatics etc.
As far as your point about poor supervision on the Puma fleet is concerned, all I can say is that during my time I would most certainly dispute that. I joined the OCU just after the fatal Norway accident (door fell off, taking out the tail rotor) and the fatal Belize accident (engine failure during a night departure from a jungle clearing). Six weeks after I joined my first squadron we lost another crew during Op Agila. After those accidents, supervision was very tight indeed and OCU output standards were also squeezed very tightly; no prisoners were taken - ask a few more on this forum who experienced it first hand.
Unfortunately, after the Chinook became the SH fleet's new toy in the 1980s, the Puma fleet was pushed to the background and this may be the reason standards slipped. Thankfully, by that time, I had moved on to fixed wing and was happily teaching aerobatics etc.
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As far as "aerobatting" helicopters goes, during my time as a heli display pilot, we were given a presentation by Westlands, who were also overseeing the "fully aerobatic" Lynx displays.
They were very keen to point out that flying any helicopter outside of its approved/certificated flight regime has an extremely detrimental effect on the fatigue life of major aircraft components, irrespective of what the pilot senses. The display Lynx was subjected to a much increased inspection regime and early major component changes. He also pointed out that the failure is unlikely to occur during the manoeuvre in question, but some incalculable time afterwards, so another pilot might become the unwitting victim of some pilot who has horsed the aircraft around for fun.
The type I displayed was later damaged during a display (tail rotor blades damage; not by me) and following investigation and evaluation by Boscombe Down, the display was banned.
They were very keen to point out that flying any helicopter outside of its approved/certificated flight regime has an extremely detrimental effect on the fatigue life of major aircraft components, irrespective of what the pilot senses. The display Lynx was subjected to a much increased inspection regime and early major component changes. He also pointed out that the failure is unlikely to occur during the manoeuvre in question, but some incalculable time afterwards, so another pilot might become the unwitting victim of some pilot who has horsed the aircraft around for fun.
The type I displayed was later damaged during a display (tail rotor blades damage; not by me) and following investigation and evaluation by Boscombe Down, the display was banned.
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As an ex-military pilot (21 years experience), I would be very careful to side with anybody showing disregard for rules and the flight manual, particularly since in the forces that I came from, discipline was not negotiable. It is sad that the Royal Air Force was pulled into this discussion.
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BTW, did anyone notice the next squirrel video on that same site? (furry kind; not AS350 Ecureuil kind): Squirrel Flying
what operating limitations did he exceed?
does anyone have that info as fact ? or is this all speculation?
As a maintenance guy, with loads of component overhaul experience, I only have unscheduled inspections from Chapter 05-50 that I can refer to when there is an incident. To date, I dont believe I have found an elusive manual for inspections after crazy flying.
if there is no recorded overtorque, no recorded overspeed, no chip lights, no sudden stoppage, or loss of oil, no hard landing, etc....then I have nothing further to inspect as Airbus has already deemed the aircraft capable of handling the flight envelope flown with-in those parameters. There isn't some magical manual that I refer to for Pilot operating like a nut.
I have to trust their engineering department has created a robust design that is capable of handing X amount of overstress from published limits.
does anyone have that info as fact ? or is this all speculation?
As a maintenance guy, with loads of component overhaul experience, I only have unscheduled inspections from Chapter 05-50 that I can refer to when there is an incident. To date, I dont believe I have found an elusive manual for inspections after crazy flying.
if there is no recorded overtorque, no recorded overspeed, no chip lights, no sudden stoppage, or loss of oil, no hard landing, etc....then I have nothing further to inspect as Airbus has already deemed the aircraft capable of handling the flight envelope flown with-in those parameters. There isn't some magical manual that I refer to for Pilot operating like a nut.
I have to trust their engineering department has created a robust design that is capable of handing X amount of overstress from published limits.
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Airbus forbids aerobatic manoeuvres in their RFM
Airbus forbids aerobatic manoeuvres in their RFM
As has been mentioned earlier in this thread they have a more rigorous inspection programme but all pre-production machines have this anyway.
If something was possibly going to break they would fix it. Should one break without obvious damage like blade strikes or similar without any witnesses they could have a lot of explaining to do.