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AS 350: "Hold my beer son and watch this!"

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AS 350: "Hold my beer son and watch this!"

Old 4th Jul 2018, 22:15
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OMG!
I never ever thought i'd agree with the common sense nigelh has been stating on this topic AND disagree with Crab. WTF?
You've changed crab!
The manouevre was smoothly executed, beautifully caught on camera and may or may not have technically gone aerobatic.
BUT the pilot was a ******** for executing a manouevre inappropriate to the conditions prevailing.
He was almost certainly showing off, naive for being filmed in such an embarrasing situation and most definitely not operating within a safe flight regime should something even relatively minor have gone wrong like a bird strike or woe betide - more serious like a wire strike.
Nil points for professionalism. If he'd been employed by me he'd be sacked before he RTB'd.
TW*T. Methinks.
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Old 4th Jul 2018, 22:29
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Some people on very high horses here, happy to criticise the pilot in the video despite not knowing who he is, his level of skill, his training, the aircraft configuration or pretty much anything.

Also on the high horses are those that claim they have never done anything the infringes any rules or regulations pertaining to flying, never lifted off too heavy, never flown too fast, never dealt with an emergenmcy the way it suited them rather than following the RFM, oversped the rotor. etc etc
.
Followed the thread but didn't actually have anything to say before.

@crab: I'm with you for your statements so far.

Its seems like a civil helo probably making that manouver illegal but it wouldn't need to be unsafe in the right helo. From what I can see it looks like it was flown ok.
I wasn't trained on the AS350 and the servo transparency thing doesn't sound that nice in my ears( even for "normal" flying, because we have seen some accidents coming from that corner). I'm sure that if you are correctly trained to fly the AS350 you would be thought how to stay away from the limiting factors for the servo transparency thing. Just like the Bo105 and steep right turns at low speed.
I guess that a civil pilot cannot get to that corner of the envelope without braking the law several times, an he probably need to try-and-learn. That part would make it dangerous, not really knowing when trying. But if it was a pilot trained to fly close to the corners of the helo envelope and a lot of experience from this, I wouldn't se that manouver as unsafe at all.

I think we need to be able to understand the difference between 'illegal' and 'unsafe'. As per the civil definition, the manouver is unsafe. Its illegal, thereby no one can be properly trained to perform it safe. In the military world, manouvers close to this could be performed because it would be more dangerous not to. The military authority allowing the manouver knows if could be dangerous and therefore does what is possible to minimize the risk connected to that manouver. The trained pilot could safely (and illegally) perform the manouver.

The 60 degree bank or 30 attitude doesn't make the limits for all aircrafts safety envelope. An Extra-aircraft-rated fixed wing pilot without aerobatic training is limited to 60 degrees AOB/ 30 nose up/down but only because he/she isn't trained for anything else.
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Old 4th Jul 2018, 22:37
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Originally Posted by Thomas coupling
You've changed crab!
The manouevre was smoothly executed, beautifully caught on camera and may or may not have technically gone aerobatic.
BUT the pilot was a ******** for executing a manouevre inappropriate to the conditions prevailing.
He was almost certainly showing off, naive for being filmed in such an embarrasing situation and most definitely not operating within a safe flight regime should something even relatively minor have gone wrong like a bird strike or woe betide - more serious like a wire strike.
Nil points for professionalism. If he'd been employed by me he'd be sacked before he RTB'd.
TW*T. Methinks.
Yes, absolutely. I don't see crab saying otherwise ?
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 04:55
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Thanks AAKEE - at least someone is reading what I post
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 11:51
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Crab ... you said
Nigel - it is quite acceptable to go past 90 degree AoB on a well flown wingover
so you are saying that effective inverted flight is acceptable? Up against a cliff face picking up pax ?
We all know you are an ex Mil fighter Ace , because you have told us umpteen times before 🤔, but we are talking civvy pilot , civvy Helicoper and civvy maintenance....not military.
ps . By the way I am quite capable of doing rolls in my Helicoper , let alone 90deg + turns . Why don’t I ?
because I pay the bills and I don’t think my insurance co would be very happy to see it !!!
My God ... TC and I on the same page ... who would have thought that would happen ...
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 15:38
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Crab ... you said
Nigel - it is quite acceptable to go past 90 degree AoB on a well flown wingover
yes I did and it is - I didn't say any Tom, Dick or Harry should try it

so you are saying that effective inverted flight is acceptable? Up against a cliff face picking up pax ?
it's not really inverted flight since it isn't steady state - it is just overbanking. he is not up against a cliff face when he flys the manoeuvre and by the time he picks up the pax he is in a normal approach and landing configuration.

By the way I am quite capable of doing rolls in my Helicoper , let alone 90deg + turns . Why don’t I ?
that implies that you have done so...............or how do you know you are capable of it.

I'm not an ex-mil fighter ace ( you have told us you have enough money to run your own helos but I don't call you a spoilt rich man) but I have experience of manoeuvring a helicopter in what many think are extreme attitudes and you still don't know anything about the pilot in this video.

TC has clearly forgotten some of his history in uniform...........
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 16:48
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Crab ... the point is this isn’t a military exercise.
and come on , you know you do bang on a bit about mil flying ! Just remember that most pilots do not get the sort of training to do extreme manoeuvres so how do they learn ?? On the job in the Co Heli 🙈
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 17:25
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Just remember that most pilots do not get the sort of training to do extreme manoeuvres
Maybe he had?
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 17:57
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Crab ... the point is this isn’t a military exercise.
no but you don't know what sort of exercise it was - certainly not public transport ops.

As FED points out, he might be a very experienced pilot, even a test pilot, you don't know but are determined to pass judgement on him.

If I bang on about mil flying it is because it is what I have done for 35 years and the variety, challenges and perhaps even danger are difficult to explain to those who haven't experienced it.

I'm not going to get into another civ vs mil pissing contest because there are good and bad pilots on both sides.

However, those concerned about how 'safe' commercial aviation is, conveniently ignore how few hours are mandated for a type rating, even on complex types, before you can fly pax when you have barely learned the aircraft systems - that wouldn't happen in the military.
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 18:02
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I dont really care whether Crab can convince us that this chap was trained, did fly within the Airbus limits, and didnt put anyone at risk. The issue is EXAMPLE. Civilian rotary flying, whether we like it or not, is a privilege. It shouldn't be, but many countries effectively ban it. Others restrict it. And some are reviewing it. Every time we fly, whether as a newbie or an ex military professional, we need to set an example. Every time you make excessive noise, annoy people on the ground or behave like a p*** you increase opposition to our sport, our hobby, our transportation in business or our livelihood. Politicians need nothing more than a couple of accidents to add further restrictions which will cost people their jobs.

Professional pilots in particular should set an example of safe considerate flying. Whether this was safe is irrelevant. It will appear to some outsiders as dangerous and was unecessary
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 21:34
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Originally Posted by homonculus
Professional pilots in particular should set an example of safe considerate flying. Whether this was safe is irrelevant. It will appear to some outsiders as dangerous and was unecessary
I second that!

Originally Posted by nigelh
Well Jelly .... you taught me that manoeuvre but with the caveat ... NEVER in a teetering head and then only when no cameras around !!!!
ps . My 109 is for sale fresh out of annual and
CHEAP or exchange/swap if you have any ideas . Thanks
Very smooth change of subjects, nigel!
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 23:17
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Some thirty one years ago, I was an RAF helicopter display pilot. I was allowed and authorised to fly manoeuvres that squadron helicopter pilots were prohibited from flying. The manoeuvres flown in my display were quite extreme, bearing in mind that it was a seven tonne helicopter with a fully articulated rotor head and were classed as semi-aerobatic. I successfully flew my season without mishap but two other pilots subsequently copied the more extreme manoeuvres I had developed and unfortunately damaged the aircraft so the display was discontinued (and hasn't been flown since 1994, although the type remains in squadron service).

Although I have considerable experience of flying the type of helicopter in the video, I would not carry out that short of manoeuvre in those circumstances. Why? Because there was absolutely no need to do it and there was some risk to the aircraft - it was unnecessary showboating during a routine job.
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 06:33
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Come on Shy - are you really telling me in all your time on Pumas, you never used a wingover arrival to insert or extract troops where it wasn't really necessary?

The unfortunate fact is that every man and his dog has a camera on their phone nowadays so things that previously went unadvertised now appear on social media in seconds.

Nigel has admitted that he has been taught and flown such manoeuvres so there is an element of double standards here.

I am not defending the pilot in question in his choice of time and place for his wingover but the thread started about servo transparency (which it clearly wasn't) and has turned into a Spanish Inquisition for anyone who dares to fly other than straight and level.

In terms of danger to the aircraft in the video - what exact danger was there? The fact that it was filmed from a cliff ignores the acres of fresh air he was actually flying in and the final approach to the cliff would have been almost identical had he started 3 miles out in a constant angle approach.

Knowing your aircraft and how it (and you) behaves in more advanced handling conditions might make the difference when you get caught out by weather, wires or another aircraft - handling skills are taught in the military for good reasons.
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 08:17
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@shy
Although I have considerable experience of flying the type of helicopter in the video, I would not carry out that short of manoeuvre in those circumstances. Why? Because there was absolutely no need to do it and there was some risk to the aircraft - it was unnecessary showboating during a routine job.

If you see things that way - tell me what „need“ is there for display flying with „extreme manoeuvres“ (that you developed).

Looks like two measures for pilots here!?!
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 08:41
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Totally agree with homonculus #70.
Helicopters performing aerobatics never look pretty and do nothing to help the civil aviation helicopter scene where many of the public regard helicopters as noisy expensive toys. The commercial helicopter world does not need "cowboy" pilots who want to show off. If you had reason to fly like that in the Services then fine but in no way does it fit the image of a "professional pilot" in the commercial world.
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 09:06
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Crab

Following your logic, I presume you would defend a fixed wing pilot doing a wingover / semi aerobatics in a A380 coming into LHR - if not with passengers, then on a positioning flight......After all I have seen some really good aerobatics at the Farnborough airshow with the A380 so must be safe

Many of my passengers are, if not frightened, then at least anxious. They need reassurance, and want a nice smooth trip. Regulated aerobatics at airshows thrill little boys, and many big boys. Aerobatics like this terrify potential passengers and give ammunition to our distractors. You may have a nice military pension, but many other pilots are desperate for work. We need passengers and the ability to fly them
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 09:48
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Originally Posted by nigelh
You never do climbing high g turns to the right in a squirrel ... everyone knows that !!
Sorry to interrupt the heated conversation but anyone care to explain the above to a newbie pilot with no knowledge of AS350?
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 10:13
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Originally Posted by HeliboyDreamer
Sorry to interrupt the heated conversation but anyone care to explain the above to a newbie pilot with no knowledge of AS350?
In the AS350 the main rotor turns right (clockwise). So the helicopter is being turned left (anti-clockwise) by the torque reaction. So the natural tendency is left...if you turn right, you're fighting against the direction of the turning rotor.
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 12:28
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That is not the reason . The reason you do not do high g turns to the right is because that is the direction of roll if you over cook it and get jack stall which can make you go inverted . ( Not relevant here I think as he was v light )
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Old 6th Jul 2018, 13:25
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Homonculus - trying to extrapolate from my logic is a fatuous and pointless argument and I haven't advocated this sort of manoeuvre with pax on board anywhere.

Apart from that, he probably didn't have pax on board since he looked like he was doing a pick up not a drop off so you can take one step back with your outrage.

Many of my passengers are, if not frightened, then at least anxious
perhaps because they are flying with you....... mine aren't
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