London Chopper Access - #inthedarkages

[JulieAndrews]

It never ceases to amaze me how 'amateurish' it all must appear to a potential investor visiting from overseas.
One licenced heliport situated in the wrong part of the capital and getting more and more 'non-commercial' by the day - I understand it is down to accepting 6 landing slots/hour? Various ad-hoc 'private' sites reliant on owners' goodwill, sporting timetable and LHR........
Do we even have the wherewithal to improve situation now or is it a case of just blundering on with the current situation?
How come none of these high-rise buildings have an HLS on them?
If Hairbrush Industries are to be believed we will all be travelling in electric helicopters/drones in the near future - but not sure where they think they're all going to land!
Have heard the old stories of dragging in barges etc
Does any Rotorhead think the situation will improve in the future or not?
Is BHA leading the rush to the bottom..........

[OvertHawk]

I can't see any London Borough granting planning permission for the creation or expansion of any helicopter landing sites as it's a guaranteed vote loser due to noise. It did not help when someone wrapped a helicopter round a tall building in bad weather - just gave the "No" lobby more ammunition.

[muermel]

Try flying a helicopter into a German major city. No heliports whatsoever. Hamburg, Bremen and Berlin won't even let you land within city limits although as a commercial operator local companies have what is called an "Allgemeinerlaubnis" (General Permission to land outside city limits or in industrial areas with the permission of the landowner).

[John R81]

Don't forget that in London there is also Falcon Heliport (previously known as Vanguard). The other side of London from Battersea (or London Heliport), also on the Thames, and closer to Canary Warf and the City. I have been in / out Battersea several times, but not Falcon (only over-flown it) so can't speak practically about the approach / departure profile. However, they do seem to me to be "more interesting," as Falcon doesn't have the landing pad extended into the river like Battersea.

Pictures on the site linked.

[EESDL]

Good point re German cities - although they have a far superior road system which has always had a negative affect upon chopper charter demand.
i have not used their rail system but I imagine it is somewhat more impressive than ours - that said, I would imagine most other rail systems and airport connections are better than ours.....
Once we start comparing Oranges with Apples then we (the rotary industry) will never make any progress.
As ever, it needs a very large lump of cash and persuasive arguments made in a timely manner.
Not sure Falcon/Vanguard could be used on a commercial basis as approach and departure very restrictive and you are, in essence, having to use a virtual FATO by being SSE at all stages of flight and hover taxi? Have not used it myself.
Battersea is becoming a joke and not really there for the benefit of the commercial industry.

[jimjim1]

There is no hope of almost anyone living near any proposed heliport not protesting against such a development.

Try -
https://limobike.com
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...he-future.html

Now if they were all NOTARs which seem to be remarkably quiet.

[OvertHawk]

Originally Posted by John R81

Don't forget that in London there is also Falcon Heliport (previously known as Vanguard). The other side of London from Battersea (or London Heliport), also on the Thames, and closer to Canary Warf and the City. I have been in / out Battersea several times, but not Falcon (only over-flown it) so can't speak practically about the approach / departure profile. However, they do seem to me to be "more interesting," as Falcon doesn't have the landing pad extended into the river like Battersea.

Pictures on the site linked.

The use of Falcon / Vanguard is viewed differently by many people in terms of legality. It's considered by the CAA to be in a congested area and therefore requires a rule five permission. The restrictions placed within those permissions are crippling for most types and prohibitive for many. I now know that there will begin a whole round of "it's not a congested area because you can come in / out over the river" and "I've been going there in my single for years" but... That's not my opinion - it's straight from the CAA's mouth. Are they doing much to police it? No. Will they throw the book at you if there is ever an incident - almost certainly.

[JulieAndrews]

My point exactly - if there was a network of licenced facilities then such a situation would not need to exist

[John R81]

Originally Posted by OvertHawk

The use of Falcon / Vanguard is viewed differently by many people in terms of legality. It's considered by the CAA to be in a congested area and therefore requires a rule five permission. The restrictions placed within those permissions are crippling for most types and prohibitive for many. I now know that there will begin a whole round of "it's not a congested area because you can come in / out over the river" and "I've been going there in my single for years" but... That's not my opinion - it's straight from the CAA's mouth. Are they doing much to police it? No. Will they throw the book at you if there is ever an incident - almost certainly.

I don't disagree - if the CAA think its a congested site, then I would not myself think to disagree. I and I think that Falcon also agree, as you can't land there without obtaining CAA permission and sending a copy to them. See their paperwork for anyone intending to visit, which includes:

D -I have been authorised to operate to Falcon London Heliport by my AOC holder (only relevant for Commercial)
E - I attach my authorisation to operate into/out of Falcon London Heliport issued by the CAA (Private flights only)
F - CAA Flight Approvals, please ensure that the approvals for items D and/or E issued by the CAA are attached

So if CAA are not going to give you authorisation (for a commercial trip in a single, for example) then you can't get a slot with Falcon as you can't supply the necessary papers. Even if you have, for years, been going in there.

(You can get a commercial single into Battersea, however.)

[homonculus]

New central London sites have been dead in the water for 30 years. Recent events including Vauxhall, the safety review, Heathrow runway 3, Grenfell, pollution and even austerity are the many nails in the coffin

Where I think the industry dropped the ball is in not looking at sites further out when Crossrail was planned and indeed now with Crossrail 2. We could have had say 4 sites North, South, East and West adjacent to stations with journey times into Central London of 15 minutes. Now Crossrail is effectively built, the developers have already built housing to capitalise on these sites.

[helihub]

Originally Posted by JulieAndrews

Is BHA leading the rush to the bottom..........

Are you saying that BHA is doing something about it, albeit unsuccessfully thus far?

[EESDL]

I think Julie was being sarcastic?
I’ve heard of little to nothing in the press from BHA and BHAB before them of any initiatives to improve the sustainability/access situation of London chopper access.
Vanguard has never been a viable commercial site. Would be interesting to see the performance calculations of anyone whom has used it as such ;-)
with all
All passengers wearing their lifejackets of course.....

[EESDL]

Does anyone have anymore info on a previous initiative using a barge - re-mooring every 28-days so no planning required? I heard it went through the courts and a 'draw' was the conclusion but no progression to operations was made - maybe spent all funds on legal fees??

[homonculus]

My failing memory recalls it was Johnny Moss, ex AAC, who was property manager at the time for JP Morgan. He had support from some in the city and some in industry but I dont think any politician put his head over the papapit in support...it was decades ago so it expect it would be a defeat now.

[AnFI]

Jonny made a brave effort (may his sole rest in peace) ... but the 'industry' is full of such a load of back stabbing w*nkers that nothing ever gets off the ground. Now that it's (the industry) almost dead, will people see that you HAVE to support ANYTHING that might work.

Canon St trashing the Barge ... brilliant ... muppets !

No the CAA did NOT consider Vanguard to be a 'congested heliport' .. the industry did ! the arse lickers, 'cover your arse' mob of lightweights, nerdily applied for 'permission' creating a view by the feds that; "if they think they should be applying then who are we to turn down their 90quid..."

It's obviously not congested ... it's on the boundary of congestion. If the industry is spineless enough to not dare to 'push' then maybe the feds could cut this pittiful band of brothers some slack...???? morally just say: "Vangard is ok". (Falcon or whatever .. go Kazz! (or subcontractor))

Someone has to take a stand... someone? anyone?

[ShyTorque]

Someone has to take a stand... someone? anyone?

You do it!

[nigelh]

I used to fly into Vanguard regularly and never considered it to be in a congested area or have any other problems getting in and out !!!! I was unaware that some “ expert” had no decreed it to be different.
i agree AnFi .... as I have said hundreds of times before ..... we have the rules and the rule makers we deserve because the industry is totally fragmented and run by spineless people . That’s why I dumped my UK license and do all my flying FAA . The CAA and all the AOC bollocks will soon strangle the last bit of breath out of the industry and that is why most flights are “ private “ .

[EESDL]

What noise ?

Sat trying to have a quiet beer whilst waiting for the show to start and annoying police sirens all over the place!
could not hear myself complaining about the TV AS355 burning holes in the sky above.
This is getting silly - G-INTV has been up there building animosity towards rotary sector for at least 40-mins.
I can only presume there is a major incident in progress as G-UKTV now come to add to the noise !
That’s over an hour going round in circles for INTV now
Centred over St James Park
surely not here for the Christening ??

[ShyTorque]

Possibly looking for Boris......

[EESDL]

It was still going strong when I left the area after 90-mins. All that bolloc5s about flying neighbourly - doing it in stints - completely out of the window. Must have been a national emergency to justify it but not a Flying Plod anywhere in sight (probably still sheparding our cousins from across the water)
another nail in the coffin........