"Helicopter and crew put at great risk to rescue man with indigestion."
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"Helicopter and crew put at great risk to rescue man with indigestion."
Maybe it is time to educate the general public our way. A friend of mine posted this elsewhere with the caption:
The headline should read "Helicopter and crew put at great risk in mountain blizzard to rescue man with indigestion." The guy required no treatment and went back to his group. Something wrong here!
Snowdonia: Man rescued in blizzard by helicopter - BBC News
The headline should read "Helicopter and crew put at great risk in mountain blizzard to rescue man with indigestion." The guy required no treatment and went back to his group. Something wrong here!
Snowdonia: Man rescued in blizzard by helicopter - BBC News
Who flips for the bill?
The way it works here by us is the Doc specifies if the helicopter is necessary or not according to symptoms and his professional opinion. If not, the insurance company passes the bill onto the patient.
But as Gordy says, Joe public needs a bit of education!
But as Gordy says, Joe public needs a bit of education!
Flyting - how does that work when the Doc can't see the patient?
You have to go on best guess information and assume the casualty is in real need - unless you have trained medical personnel on scene, you will always have to err on the side of caution.
The education part comes in not setting off up the mountain in poor weather in the first place but people don't want to hear that message.
You have to go on best guess information and assume the casualty is in real need - unless you have trained medical personnel on scene, you will always have to err on the side of caution.
The education part comes in not setting off up the mountain in poor weather in the first place but people don't want to hear that message.
Helicopter and crew put at great risk in mountain blizzard to rescue man with indigestion.
(22yrs UK SAR, 8yrs at RAF Valley/Snowdonia)
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The symptoms of a severe stomach ache can be remarkably similar to that of a heart attack. It's my guess that this what was suspected and would justify an emergency call-out (as stated the Dr will have to go off the symptoms being described to make the call). Unfortunately, afterwards it turns out it was just a stomach-ache which of course isn't an emergency and the armchair brigade swing into full 'safety was compromised unnecessarily' without knowing the real circumstances.....of course, this is also speculation!
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I concur. I had a very similar situation in Bosnia about 20 yrs ago. We were called out in the middle of the night in a snowstorm to pick up a Canadian soldier who had a suspected heart attack. Turned out to be oesophagitis, which is a form of indigestion. (You dont find that out until afterwards!)
Pure press bollox! They don't half harm the industry when they invent stuff like this.
You assess the situation - you make the call. ARCC/Mountain rescue decide the rest.
You can be damn sure that this particular situation was thrashed out on the radio and circumstances dictated he needed an airlift - endex.
No doubt, if the indigestion was wrong, so, too the blizzard!
You assess the situation - you make the call. ARCC/Mountain rescue decide the rest.
You can be damn sure that this particular situation was thrashed out on the radio and circumstances dictated he needed an airlift - endex.
No doubt, if the indigestion was wrong, so, too the blizzard!
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As a qualified first-aider, we were taught that indigestion can have a similar set of symptoms to a heart-attack, and to treat its as such, call ambulance etc.
This simply a case of people doing what they have been trained to do and should have done. Its unfortunate that the aircrew had to be put at risk for something that turned out to be benign, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Maybe its time you educate yourself on correct first aid response?
This simply a case of people doing what they have been trained to do and should have done. Its unfortunate that the aircrew had to be put at risk for something that turned out to be benign, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Maybe its time you educate yourself on correct first aid response?
Avoid imitations
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Having done my time carrying out many casevacs (military, police and civilian) I've been fed a line on a number of occasions.
Very early in my military career as a junior and recently qualified pilot I was tasked at night (in the days before night vision devices were available) to rescue a soldier "with a broken back" from the Belize jungle. We came close to busting our backsides to get there; not least of all we flew through a tropical thunderstorm to locate him. When we arrived the soldiers had done nothing to light the site for us. The entire patrol walked to the aircraft to be extracted. The one with the "broken back" walked onto the aircraft with the rest of them....
Another occasion - I was tasked after midnight to an unlit site to rescue a casualty "with a severe hand injury". Again, during a tropical storm, the Far East this time. When we found the casualty, he was at a beach party, drunk and and had a cut on his thumb after breaking his glass; the likes of which many sensible folks wouldn't have gone to A&E for.
Sometimes it's not worth risking the aircraft, crew and casualty; but you often don't find out until after the event - that's just how it goes.
Very early in my military career as a junior and recently qualified pilot I was tasked at night (in the days before night vision devices were available) to rescue a soldier "with a broken back" from the Belize jungle. We came close to busting our backsides to get there; not least of all we flew through a tropical thunderstorm to locate him. When we arrived the soldiers had done nothing to light the site for us. The entire patrol walked to the aircraft to be extracted. The one with the "broken back" walked onto the aircraft with the rest of them....
Another occasion - I was tasked after midnight to an unlit site to rescue a casualty "with a severe hand injury". Again, during a tropical storm, the Far East this time. When we found the casualty, he was at a beach party, drunk and and had a cut on his thumb after breaking his glass; the likes of which many sensible folks wouldn't have gone to A&E for.
Sometimes it's not worth risking the aircraft, crew and casualty; but you often don't find out until after the event - that's just how it goes.
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I concur. I had a very similar situation in Bosnia about 20 yrs ago. We were called out in the middle of the night in a snowstorm to pick up a Canadian soldier who had a suspected heart attack. Turned out to be oesophagitis, which is a form of indigestion. (You dont find that out until afterwards!)
The biggest question in my mind was that I was the only person with a first aid qualification, and the only person qualified to fly the helicopter, so other thah diverting what could I do? It made a total mockery of the CAA's requirement that we pilots should be qualified in first aid, and know how to administer help at the same time as controlling a machine which requires quite a lot of human input.
SND
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The biggest question in my mind was that I was the only person with a first aid qualification, and the only person qualified to fly the helicopter, so other thah diverting what could I do? It made a total mockery of the CAA's requirement that we pilots should be qualified in first aid, and know how to administer help at the same time as controlling a machine which requires quite a lot of human input.
SND
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FAVOURITE USELESS CASEVAC
My all-time favourite night SAR/CASEVAC call-out in Hong Kong was for a somewhat portly lady who turned out to just have an ingrowing toe-nail. The outlying island clinic 'Doctor on duty' was famous for getting rid of patients by helicopter so he could close up shop and go home on weekends....... 
Whilst those in the front seat comment on the first aid, may a doctor comment on the aviation ?
In the civilian systems I have worked, the management decided what was accepted. I presume here HMG has decided to provide SAR whenever the ground services feel it needed
The doctor has then decided whether there is a clinical need and if so passed the request to the aircrew. The pilot has decided whether the flight can be undertaken but he (she) has not been told who the patient is nor why they need transportation. Equally the medical crew has never been told of any aviation issues such as deteriorating weather, maintenance etc. This Chinese wall has not been foolproof but has IMHO reduced risk. We didnt launch if there was a risk.
This is not unique to aviation services in medicine. Whenever I attend a road traffic accident I am obliged not to put myself or my team at risk. I do not cross a motorway even if a patient dies just feet away. I do not attend a patient if the traffic is not controlled. We do not have heroes.
Accepting that the media juice everything up, surely the mission was either OK to fly or not. There is always some risk but it must be acceptable. We are talking about a civilian patient requesting NHS care, not a theatre of war, nor a sinking ship. Do you really launch and push the boundary because it is a sick patient??? The patient's pathology was irrelevant...... If you wouldnt position for maintenance in that weather should you launch for a patient....
In the civilian systems I have worked, the management decided what was accepted. I presume here HMG has decided to provide SAR whenever the ground services feel it needed
The doctor has then decided whether there is a clinical need and if so passed the request to the aircrew. The pilot has decided whether the flight can be undertaken but he (she) has not been told who the patient is nor why they need transportation. Equally the medical crew has never been told of any aviation issues such as deteriorating weather, maintenance etc. This Chinese wall has not been foolproof but has IMHO reduced risk. We didnt launch if there was a risk.
This is not unique to aviation services in medicine. Whenever I attend a road traffic accident I am obliged not to put myself or my team at risk. I do not cross a motorway even if a patient dies just feet away. I do not attend a patient if the traffic is not controlled. We do not have heroes.
Accepting that the media juice everything up, surely the mission was either OK to fly or not. There is always some risk but it must be acceptable. We are talking about a civilian patient requesting NHS care, not a theatre of war, nor a sinking ship. Do you really launch and push the boundary because it is a sick patient??? The patient's pathology was irrelevant...... If you wouldnt position for maintenance in that weather should you launch for a patient....
Sometimes it's not worth risking the aircraft, crew and casualty; but you often don't find out until after the event - that's just how it goes.
Anyone believing otherwise is in the wrong gig.
Anyone believing otherwise is in the wrong gig.
In the civilian systems I have worked, the management decided what was accepted. I presume here HMG has decided to provide SAR whenever the ground services feel it needed
If a walker falls and injures their leg and their companion dials 999 - they may think it is a broken leg even if it is just a twisted ankle but you won't know until you get there. At what point do you turn round and go home? A much trickier decision than some seem to believe.
If Emergency services are on scene then the crew can get real-time medical information via Airwave or by phone through the coastguard.
I have been called out to someone who 'had their arm bitten off by a horse' (nothing of the sort, just a fall), 'has been gored by a bull' (got caught between a big cow and a fence) and 'a person trapped in a flooded carpark' (Boscastle). And 250 nm off the West coast of Ireland for a merchant seaman with appendicitis (he walked off the aircraft at the hospital and discharged himself from their care as there was nothing wrong with him). You just never know........
Thanks Crab
I wont cross swords with you on 'true' SAR - I have no experience - but this is ambulance work collecting injured members of the public and delivering them to an NHS hospital. It may be from a location unsuitable for a land ambulance but otherwise no different.
My pilots never know either. That is the point. They launch / proceed if it is safe. If it isnt safe they go home. Period. Pilots, medical crew and machine always before patient. That is what doctors and nurses who dont normally work outside a hospital dont understand. They will put pressure on the pilot / system because that is what we do in a hospital. The system needs to prevent this and avoid risk.
Of course, your minima may be below that for a civilian cab, so the SAR system can safely launch when others cant, Fantastic. But it should be a go:no go decision, not a 'well as its a sick patient lets give it a go'
I wont cross swords with you on 'true' SAR - I have no experience - but this is ambulance work collecting injured members of the public and delivering them to an NHS hospital. It may be from a location unsuitable for a land ambulance but otherwise no different.
My pilots never know either. That is the point. They launch / proceed if it is safe. If it isnt safe they go home. Period. Pilots, medical crew and machine always before patient. That is what doctors and nurses who dont normally work outside a hospital dont understand. They will put pressure on the pilot / system because that is what we do in a hospital. The system needs to prevent this and avoid risk.
Of course, your minima may be below that for a civilian cab, so the SAR system can safely launch when others cant, Fantastic. But it should be a go:no go decision, not a 'well as its a sick patient lets give it a go'
