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Helicopter down in East River, NYC

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Helicopter down in East River, NYC

Old 15th Mar 2018, 22:12
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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Take a wander over to the New York Post web site.....there is an interesting article about the Chief Pilot and the CEO of Liberty Helicopters I am told by a former pprune member. The article can be found in the “Metro” section if you scroll down a bit!
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 22:25
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SASless
Take a wander over to the New York Post web site.....there is an interesting article about the Chief Pilot and the CEO of Liberty Helicopters I am told by a former pprune member. The article can be found in the “Metro” section if you scroll down a bit!
http://https://nypost.com/2018/03/14/helicopter-crash-companys-bosses-have-shady-pasts/

Here you go.
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Old 15th Mar 2018, 22:36
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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A second article reporting the filing of the first law suit suggests the Big Guns are coming out looking for big money. The Attorney just won a 100 Million Dollar settlement for a burn victim of a helicopter crash.
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 13:25
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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I would opt for the harness without rapid release too.
To my knowledge, in the period 2000-2013 two cameramen have perished trapped in non standard harnesses, whilst ALL other passengers and pilot survived.
There is story of one cameraman falling when he unbuckled himself in a large military helicopter to better secure his equipment.

So on that basis, it is safer not to be harnessed in...

Aviation safety bodies have received and studied Aerial filming/photo accidents, which included ditchings.

The risk assessment of the NYC operation is, on face value, from a professional aerial filming perspective, below best industry practice.

Whatever caused the loss of power (as if there has never been a claim that camera crew have accidentally interfered with flight controls!)
the lives of passengers hinged on a successful auto into water in whatever weather prevailed, day or dusk.
Glassy surface included.


If the auto was botched or a float failed then we all agree passengers would perish. Even with world class emergency services and medical care on the doorstep.

I’ve yet to read a comment from experienced crew who are surprised that passengers were unable to free themselves in this ditching.

The final, rotten, discragefull ignominy is the thought of the hapless pilot who was ill-equipped to carry out a rescue of his passengers, mere meters away.

From the perspective of the victims families, they will be soon realising that their personal life, mortgage and accident insurance probably excludes the flight.

They will have to fund a fight in court and prove negligence of the charter company.

What an industry!

Aren’t you guys interested in at very least improving your own survivability?
Helmets? Survival suits? Rescue Training? Loose objects and straps in the cabin? Photographer seated next to you?

Outside of war zones, aerial filming kills more photographers and cameramen than all other causes combined.

It’s an ongoing, toxic combination that deserves special attention.


Mjb
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 13:33
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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New update from the NTSB on the case.

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-rele...20180315c.aspx
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 13:40
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mickjoebill
Loose objects and straps in the cabin?
At the company I work as marshaller, the policy is very clear. No objects except what you can handhold. Bags, belts unused headsets have to be placed in the baggage compartment. This is required, as the EC120B has seats which absorb crash energy. If the movement would be obstructed be objects underneath, then this would be a safety issue.
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 14:17
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by muermel
New update from the NTSB on the case.

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-rele...20180315c.aspx
I just love how they avoid the status of the fuel levers. Its like it's the holy grail of secrets to be kept until they release their findings in a year or more. Do they chuckle with great joy in this?

Where were they? on ? off? middle of their travel? simple fact checking statement would be sufficient.

I know there are pro's and cons to releasing that information at this stage, but the pilot made a statement after the crash....why the veil of secrecy on the status ? This would be a tactile fact that would be beneficial to many I believe.
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 14:50
  #228 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GrayHorizonsHeli
Where were they? on ? off? middle of their travel? simple fact checking statement would be sufficient.
I would love to see the state of two lever in this particular case

FFCL (OFF - FLIGHT - EMER)
FSL [ON (FWD) - OFF (AFT)]
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 20:09
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MartinM
I would love to see the state of two lever in this particular case

FFCL (OFF - FLIGHT - EMER)
FSL [ON (FWD) - OFF (AFT)]
don't know if the position of either matters post-crash. pilot may have moved one or both as soon as engine started dying.

what does matter is the witness wire on the fuel cutoff. if broken, fuel flow was interrupted during flight.

Last edited by e7pilot; 17th Mar 2018 at 05:00.
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 20:47
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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FAA orders immediate halt to doors-off flight utilizing restraints without emergency release devices:

FAA Statement 1/3: #Helicopter operators, #pilots & consumers should be aware of the hazard from supplemental restraint devices during an emergency evacuation during “doors off” flights. The FAA will order operators & pilots to take immediate action to control/mitigate this risk.

FAA Statement 2/3: Until then, the #FAA will order no more “doors off” operations that involve restraints that cannot be released quickly in an emergency.

FAA Statement 3/3: Additionally, the #FAA will conduct a top to bottom review of its rules governing these #flights to examine any potential misapplication that could create #safety gaps for #passengers.
That was fast.

(Was unable to embed a link, seems to be posted by the FAA only on Twitter so far).
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 22:02
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A109drvr
Did they do some sort of redesign after a passenger’s backpack caught the FFCL in N213EH in Alaska 10 years ago?

I haven’t flown an AS350 in 15 years so I am not really sure what they did, but I thought something came out of that investigation.
Check the NTSB's revised report on that accident.
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 22:06
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DCP123
Check the NTSB's revised report on that accident.
https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employmen...x?Rec=A-10-129

Date: 1/23/2015
Response: We are aware that, on July 1, 2012, Eurocopter (now Airbus Helicopters) introduced a modification to the FFCL design for new Airbus Helicopter (AH) 350B2 type design helicopters; that the modification includes a locking feature for the IDLE, FLIGHT, and STOP positions of the FFCL; and that a separate locking device limits the FFCL’s access to the emergency range. We are also aware that moving the FFCL from the locked positions requires the operator to push either a start button or a dedicated push paddle. Although you did not require Eurocopter to redesign the FFCL, we believe that the company’s decision to do so and your involvement in the redesign process constitute an acceptable alternate solution to the problem. We are encouraged that, although you evaluated the AS350 fleet and found that mandatory retrofit to in-service helicopters was not supported by current data, you plan to continue to monitor the data for related events. Accordingly, Safety Recommendation A 10 129 is classified CLOSED—ACCEPTABLE ALTERNATE ACTION.
(Emphasis added)
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 23:33
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MikeNYC
FAA orders immediate halt to doors-off flight utilizing restraints without emergency release devices:

That was fast.
FAA can’t claim they didn’t know these flights were occurring regularly or that the circumstances of the entrapment (cold shock and harness design) were unforseen.

Worldwide, the FAA are regarded as the lead safety authority who oversee the industry, that for two decades, has killed more members of the media than all other causes combined, war zones aside.

Aerial photography can be thrilling and should continue to be available to the general public, whilst it will never be as risk free as roller coasters it can be made safer for all.

For a start, FAA should rewrite the above ban to include all flights using harnesses without quick releases, not just flights without doors.
Otherwise they are effectively condoning the same harness being used for identical flights as the accident flight only in aircraft with sliding doors.
So FAA are in effect, rubber stamping the scenario of an even more dangerous situation of inversion with doors closed and existing harness!

Mjb

Last edited by mickjoebill; 16th Mar 2018 at 23:50.
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Old 16th Mar 2018, 23:50
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mickjoebill
FAA can’t claim they didn’t know these flights were occurring regularly or that the circumstances of the entrapment (cold shock and harness design) were unforseen.

Worldwide, the FAA are regarded as the lead safety authority who oversee the industry, that for two decades, has killed more members of the media than all other causes combined, war zones aside.

Aerial photography can be thrilling and should continue to be available to the general public, whilst it will never be as risk free as roller coasters it can be made safer for all.

For a start, FAA should rewrite the above ban to include all flights using harnesses without quick releases, not just flights without doors.
Otherwise they are effectively condoning the same harness being used for identical flights as the accident flight only in aircraft with sliding doors.
So FAA are in effect, rubber stamping the scenario of an even more dangerous situation of inversion with doors closed and existing harness!

Mjb
Did you read then ban? I think you are misinterpreting what they’re saying.
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 01:08
  #235 (permalink)  
 
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Not actually banned yet

For some reason, rather than just issuing an emergency AD or FAA order, they sent out a Tweet. Now to the masses, the FAA has already banned harnesses that are not easily released by the passenger. Dudes, as fas as I know, a Tweet has no regulatory authority despite what the orange guy may think. If you read their tweet, it says they "WILL" be reviewing these procedures and they "will" be issuing some sort of document that has regulatory authority. I hope anyone conducting these flights is smart enough to self police and get the best equipment out there to meet this requirement but beware...rushing to change equipment and training protocols often has unintended consequences or unforseen problems. I think everyone should just back off from these flights umless real pro photographers who know the risks are involved. Forget the civilians and rediculous foot selfies.
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 01:23
  #236 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by havick
Did you read then ban? I think you are misinterpreting what they’re saying.
Precisely, misinterpretation = loophole.

Mjb
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 04:20
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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Here's a video of the Miami operation of said company flying one of Liberty Helicopters AS350 B2s. As it just so happens the B2 in the video is the sister ship of that flight that ended up in the East River the other day that was flying a similar route and and can be heard on radio searching the river after the ditching.
From minute 17:12 onward you can get a clear look at the FFCL and FSL. You can also clearly see some of those harness straps dangling fairly close...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYN6tqc1BUc

Last edited by verticalspin; 17th Mar 2018 at 04:21. Reason: link works
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 09:11
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by verticalspin
Here's a video of the Miami operation of said company flying one of Liberty Helicopters AS350 B2s. As it just so happens the B2 in the video is the sister ship of that flight that ended up in the East River the other day that was flying a similar route and and can be heard on radio searching the river after the ditching.
From minute 17:12 onward you can get a clear look at the FFCL and FSL. You can also clearly see some of those harness straps dangling fairly close...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYN6tqc1BUc
Just a slight difference between the helicopter in the video and the accident helicopter.
The accident helicopter had a 2-passenger bench up front, not the standard seat as in this video. The bench puts the middel passenger (if this seat was used) even closer to the fuel-levers than in the video.

Hopefully the Vision1000 worked properly and survived. Then it should give good details of what actually happened.

Last edited by Nubian; 17th Mar 2018 at 10:12. Reason: typo
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 13:29
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nubian
Hopefully the Vision1000 worked properly and survived. Then it should give good details of what actually happened.
NTSB also reported there was at least one GoPro onboard, but that would likely be facing outward.
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Old 17th Mar 2018, 23:29
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Years ago the Jet Ranger fuel shut off had to have a guard installed over it, as some long legged pilot knocked it off with his knee, i think. And that switch is right in front of the pilot.

It certainly makes the JR and LR family, with a distinct Pilot and Pax cabin look like a far safer option for these types of flights, as there is far less chance of the pax bag straps etc messing things up.

When we have photo missions we always ask how many pax they want, if the answer is how many seats have you got then you know that it is just a scenic flight, using the pictures as an excuse, and they "may" be able to claim it as a business expense. it sure isn't a true photography mission when they want to fill every seat wth pax, its a joyride with an excuse to have the doors open!
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