Helicopter down in East River, NYC
Have you ever been to NYC? For a predetermined safe landing site you will probably need an open spot at least the size of a basketball court that is empty at any given time. Good luck finding just one spot anywhere along the route meeting these requirements.
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Some shots of the floats hours later in this NTSB tweet:
https://twitter.com/NTSB_Newsroom/st...56722574991360
https://twitter.com/NTSB_Newsroom/st...56722574991360
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Yes, calm water and poor lighting conditions make it extremely difficult to accurately judge your height above water. I'd venture to say that the reflections of the city lights didn't help. Voice of experience here, no catastrophes, just been in those conditions a few times and know that even if you *think* you know your height above water, you really don't. Like TylerMonkey said, you hold an attitude and rate of descent that you know will be safe when you hit the water and wait for that to happen. I imagine that would be tough to do in an autorotation.
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I know someone who's son was killed in a floatplane on a lake. Apparently he misjudged his height over the water when making a turn and the wing tip hit the water and the plane crashed into the lake.
A RAD ALT is extremely useful in these situations - say, set the alert at 10 feet or so - just so that you don't fly straight into the water without a flare.
Must be incredibly difficult in an autorotation
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And why would five people be passengers on a 'photo' flight? It turns out that Manhattan tourist helo flights on Sunday have been banned by local authorities since 2016.
So, the scam (in New York City no less, I'm shocked I tell you
) is to call the flight a photo flight and operate from New Jersey. Since folks on a photo flight are 'journalists' you can't restrict their First Amendment rights now can you?
Anyway, one of the folks was a journalist but the others were tourists and helo company employees.
From one of the local tabloids:
Journalist, tourists among dead in East River helicopter crash - NY Daily News
So, the scam (in New York City no less, I'm shocked I tell you
) is to call the flight a photo flight and operate from New Jersey. Since folks on a photo flight are 'journalists' you can't restrict their First Amendment rights now can you?Anyway, one of the folks was a journalist but the others were tourists and helo company employees.
From one of the local tabloids:
The helicopters tours have been a concern for years, with most complaints revolving around noise caused by the low-flying aircrafts.
In February 2016, Mayor de Blasio announced a deal he said would reduce helicopter tours from the Downtown Manhattan heliport around the city by 50% — and eliminate them altogether on Sundays.
But the deal was riddled with loopholes that have not significantly reduced chopper flights around the city, according to John Dellaportas, president of Stop The Chop NY NJ, which has pressed for measures against the sightseeing tours for years.
The deal only applied to the heliport near Wall Street operated by the city’s Economic Development Corporation.
Helicopter operators are able to dodge the regulations by marketing their flights as professional photography tours and by taking off from New Jersey, Dellaportas said.
In February 2016, Mayor de Blasio announced a deal he said would reduce helicopter tours from the Downtown Manhattan heliport around the city by 50% — and eliminate them altogether on Sundays.
But the deal was riddled with loopholes that have not significantly reduced chopper flights around the city, according to John Dellaportas, president of Stop The Chop NY NJ, which has pressed for measures against the sightseeing tours for years.
The deal only applied to the heliport near Wall Street operated by the city’s Economic Development Corporation.
Helicopter operators are able to dodge the regulations by marketing their flights as professional photography tours and by taking off from New Jersey, Dellaportas said.
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When I was still flying we gave “at the helicopter” safety briefings in addition to the video when available... then we would seat the pax, close the doors and ask pax at the doors inside to demonstrate opening from inside... there would be a look down, some fiddling then a sheepish look back up with the door still closed. 50% of the time...
And why would five people be passengers on a 'photo' flight? It turns out that Manhattan tourist helo flights on Sunday have been banned by local authorities since 2016.
So, the scam (in New York City no less, I'm shocked I tell you) is to call the flight a photo flight and operate from New Jersey. Since folks on a photo flight are 'journalists' you can't restrict their First Amendment rights now can you?
Anyway, one of the folks was a journalist but the others were tourists and helo company employees.
From one of the local tabloids:
Journalist, tourists among dead in East River helicopter crash - NY Daily News
So, the scam (in New York City no less, I'm shocked I tell you
) is to call the flight a photo flight and operate from New Jersey. Since folks on a photo flight are 'journalists' you can't restrict their First Amendment rights now can you?Anyway, one of the folks was a journalist but the others were tourists and helo company employees.
From one of the local tabloids:
Journalist, tourists among dead in East River helicopter crash - NY Daily News
Instead they strapped everyone into the aircraft without adequate training to extricate themselves, as evidenced by everyone being dead except for the pilot.
I hope the company burns for this.
The industry will burn for this. And all that money vacuumed out by the legal settlements will cripple sightseeing helicopter operations specifically and manufacturers and operators generally. The self-funded career will die because of nowhere to build time (looking at all you EASA guys that have been relying on flying tours here to build time).
The industry will burn for this. And all that money vacuumed out by the legal settlements will cripple sightseeing helicopter operations specifically and manufacturers and operators generally. The self-funded career will die because of nowhere to build time (looking at all you EASA guys that have been relying on flying tours here to build time).
And we are back to cold water shock.
Immersion suits and air bottles (STASS or equivalent) would at least have given them a fighting chance.
Even being shown a video of how to escape underwater would have better than nothing.
Planned flight over water out of auto range of land with water temp less than 5 degrees.........
Immersion suits and air bottles (STASS or equivalent) would at least have given them a fighting chance.
Even being shown a video of how to escape underwater would have better than nothing.
Planned flight over water out of auto range of land with water temp less than 5 degrees.........
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Immersion suits and air bottles (STASS or equivalent) would at least have given them a fighting chance.
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Physical the passengers seemed to be good in shape. One a 26 year old fire fighter. So definitely the harness release was a mayor factor.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/n...pgtype=article
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/n...pgtype=article
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I doubt they are using these to connect either end of the safety tether to the floor hard points or the ring on the harness located between the shoulder blades. Static line hookup hardware like these would be a bad choice underwater or for a tour customer.
You need to push the large button to slide the hook open . . . and it’s a two handed excercise normally.
Makes no sense in a tour chopper.
Anyone know what hardware they normally use ?
You need to push the large button to slide the hook open . . . and it’s a two handed excercise normally.
Makes no sense in a tour chopper.
Anyone know what hardware they normally use ?
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
And we are back to cold water shock.
Immersion suits and air bottles (STASS or equivalent) would at least have given them a fighting chance.
Even being shown a video of how to escape underwater would have better than nothing.
Planned flight over water out of auto range of land with water temp less than 5 degrees.........
Immersion suits and air bottles (STASS or equivalent) would at least have given them a fighting chance.
Even being shown a video of how to escape underwater would have better than nothing.
Planned flight over water out of auto range of land with water temp less than 5 degrees.........
The video shows the fuselage partially submerging on first contact with the water (floats underwater), then a fairly quick roll-over. With the doors off, that cabin would have filled with frigid water very quickly. I wonder if a doors-closed flight might have given them a little more time.
I've done photo shoots (real ones) in a harness with doors off, but never over water at those temps.
Crab,
How far in advance would you have the customer book the flight....and the necessary training to use all that gear?
Surely you don”t think it fine to hand a passenger a PFD and Puff Bottle...as they head out the door to the aircraft do you?
How far in advance would you have the customer book the flight....and the necessary training to use all that gear?
Surely you don”t think it fine to hand a passenger a PFD and Puff Bottle...as they head out the door to the aircraft do you?
Originally Posted by [email protected]
And we are back to cold water shock.
Immersion suits and air bottles (STASS or equivalent) would at least have given them a fighting chance.
Even being shown a video of how to escape underwater would have better than nothing.
Planned flight over water out of auto range of land with water temp less than 5 degrees.........
Immersion suits and air bottles (STASS or equivalent) would at least have given them a fighting chance.
Even being shown a video of how to escape underwater would have better than nothing.
Planned flight over water out of auto range of land with water temp less than 5 degrees.........
