Mid-air collision between EMS helicopter and light fixed wing in southern Germany
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Both aircraft involved in this accident were on training missions. Which means that their attention might have been drawn to other things than maintaining a perfect lookout from time to time. And we all know how difficult it can be to spot other aircraft, especially helicopters, even if one constantly looks outside.
Aesir you stated ....It seems to me in all 3 accidents, the Cabri in UK, the 412 in Spain & this now, that the airplane approached and hit from above and behind in all three cases. It is a almost impossible situation to see and avoid a target coming from that direction.
Do you have evidence to back that up in the case of the 412 in Spain ?
B.g
Do you have evidence to back that up in the case of the 412 in Spain ?
B.g
In an ideal world maybe. But during a training flight one has to explain lots of stuff to one's student, one has to show them the position on the map, one has to show them the chart of the aerodrome and how to join the circuit. One simply can not always look outside.
Both aircraft involved in this accident were on training missions. Which means that their attention might have been drawn to other things than maintaining a perfect lookout from time to time. And we all know how difficult it can be to spot other aircraft, especially helicopters, even if one constantly looks outside.
Both aircraft involved in this accident were on training missions. Which means that their attention might have been drawn to other things than maintaining a perfect lookout from time to time. And we all know how difficult it can be to spot other aircraft, especially helicopters, even if one constantly looks outside.
A lot of fixed wing have their propellers painted with stripes so when it is running the effect is of cascading circles. A rotor assembly painted the same way would create a similar effect when viewed from above.
Very difficult to miss.
Very difficult to miss.
So what do you two suggest then....more avionics to look at INSIDE the cockpit?
Yes...as an instructor you are very busy BUT maintaining traffic separation in VFR/VMC conditions still requires you to look OUTSIDE.
Even with TCAS and other Traffic Advisory assistance....you still have to rely upon the MK I Eyeball.
Aircraft with limited over the nose visibility should not do straight ahead descents....as there might just be traffic under the nose....that is why clearing turns are taught (or were taught in the old days).
I, as all too many others have, have had some very close near misses while instructing or passing by/near uncontrolled airfields. Each time it was due to a breakdown in vigilance for any number of reasons.
It is a very large Sky out there until it is not.
Teaching is second priority to safe handling of the aircraft.
Yes...as an instructor you are very busy BUT maintaining traffic separation in VFR/VMC conditions still requires you to look OUTSIDE.
Even with TCAS and other Traffic Advisory assistance....you still have to rely upon the MK I Eyeball.
Aircraft with limited over the nose visibility should not do straight ahead descents....as there might just be traffic under the nose....that is why clearing turns are taught (or were taught in the old days).
I, as all too many others have, have had some very close near misses while instructing or passing by/near uncontrolled airfields. Each time it was due to a breakdown in vigilance for any number of reasons.
It is a very large Sky out there until it is not.
Teaching is second priority to safe handling of the aircraft.
Aesir you stated ....It seems to me in all 3 accidents, the Cabri in UK, the 412 in Spain & this now, that the airplane approached and hit from above and behind in all three cases. It is a almost impossible situation to see and avoid a target coming from that direction.
Do you have evidence to back that up in the case of the 412 in Spain ?
B.g
Do you have evidence to back that up in the case of the 412 in Spain ?
B.g
No I do not have evidence. I believe I read a discussion that it was a possible scenario. I understand that the accident happened at about 30ī agl where the 412 was lifting off and the Jungmeister coming in for landing.
I was merely speculating of the dangers of too much modern computer screens, expecially in single pilot operations, and how that could possibly lead to increase in inflight incursions as we are seeing lately. But I also entirely agree that flight instruction, as in the case of the German accident, requires that more attention inside the cockpit and it had this tragic outcome.
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Total lack of situational awareness!
The last few years I have had two cases of fixed wing GA try to nail me inbound on the ILS.
Both cases of not flowing ATC instruction and common sense.
Absolute brainless.
There is some out there that does not belong.
Unfortunately the " system" ie training and checking does not stop them.
Darwin and Murphy does , I am afraid.
Heads Up , Lights On.
Both cases of not flowing ATC instruction and common sense.
Absolute brainless.
There is some out there that does not belong.
Unfortunately the " system" ie training and checking does not stop them.
Darwin and Murphy does , I am afraid.
Heads Up , Lights On.
Sitting in a fix wing above, or above and behind, you do not see the a/c below you, stripes or not.
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The names of the two Swiss Piper pilots were not released but described as a flight instructor/former airline pilot and an ATPL student, who had almost finished his course.
Very sad news.
I don't buy some of the points made on here ref needing to look inside during teaching - is it not basic airmanship to ensure that you are clear of other aircaft before looking in or drawing your student's attention to something in the cockpit? If, as has been reported, the aeroplane crew knew that another aircraft was close, surely everything else (ie the teaching) stops until the threat has been identified and the conflict resolved?
And why would the aeroplane continue descending, given the known blind spot ahead and below, rather than climbing or turning into an area which they could see was definitely clear?
I don't buy some of the points made on here ref needing to look inside during teaching - is it not basic airmanship to ensure that you are clear of other aircaft before looking in or drawing your student's attention to something in the cockpit? If, as has been reported, the aeroplane crew knew that another aircraft was close, surely everything else (ie the teaching) stops until the threat has been identified and the conflict resolved?
And why would the aeroplane continue descending, given the known blind spot ahead and below, rather than climbing or turning into an area which they could see was definitely clear?
Matter of fact they did not miss.
Hot & Hi. You miss my point. Obviously if there is aircraft structure in the way you cannot see anything below you but if it is offset than it becomes visible.
I was referring to my experience doing Fighter affiliation with helicopters when I was in the military. Properly flown with the advantage of camouflage a helicopter is very difficult for a jet jockey to see. Not knowing where it is jet has to have to have a wide scan and cannot concentrate on one point where they may pick up the helicopter, similar to a look out for a civil fixed wing.
You put on one blade without any paint on it and it jumps out of the ground at you!
That is why when a pilot, fixed or rotary, looks at the ground for simple positioning then striped rotors will indicate it presence.
I was referring to my experience doing Fighter affiliation with helicopters when I was in the military. Properly flown with the advantage of camouflage a helicopter is very difficult for a jet jockey to see. Not knowing where it is jet has to have to have a wide scan and cannot concentrate on one point where they may pick up the helicopter, similar to a look out for a civil fixed wing.
You put on one blade without any paint on it and it jumps out of the ground at you!
That is why when a pilot, fixed or rotary, looks at the ground for simple positioning then striped rotors will indicate it presence.
FED.
Painted rotor blade tops and tips has been around for a very long time and works....but only if someone is looking and is able to see them.
All the paint in the world will not help if no one is looking....or if their view is obstructed someway.
It all gets back to the Mk I eyeball and a proper lookout for other traffic.
Painted rotor blade tops and tips has been around for a very long time and works....but only if someone is looking and is able to see them.
All the paint in the world will not help if no one is looking....or if their view is obstructed someway.
It all gets back to the Mk I eyeball and a proper lookout for other traffic.
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Not saying it would prevent (any) accident but would a strobe on the rotor head be of any value, with potential to add value to this with reflective strips along the rotor blades.
Get the strobe synced with the blade rpm and you would have a pretty good visual cue.
Get the strobe synced with the blade rpm and you would have a pretty good visual cue.
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Indeed a tragic event, but I know only too well how difficult it is
To spot traffic, even with a TCAS system displaying position and altitude information and with 3 pilots in the flight deck.
While I don't know the specifics of this event, I know helicopters can be extremely difficult to see at the best of times. It's not as easy as "just use airmanship and look out the window and you"ll see them"
As previously mentioned the aircraft still has to be operated and while a visual lookout is extremely important, it can't be done 100% of the time. Communication is a big one here and i'd be willing to bet this is a factor in this accident.
To spot traffic, even with a TCAS system displaying position and altitude information and with 3 pilots in the flight deck.
While I don't know the specifics of this event, I know helicopters can be extremely difficult to see at the best of times. It's not as easy as "just use airmanship and look out the window and you"ll see them"
As previously mentioned the aircraft still has to be operated and while a visual lookout is extremely important, it can't be done 100% of the time. Communication is a big one here and i'd be willing to bet this is a factor in this accident.
As previously mentioned the aircraft still has to be operated and while a visual lookout is extremely important, it can't be done 100% of the time.
Commonsense tells us that is correct as evidenced by a Single Pilot aircraft....at some point you do have to look inside and take care of business....but then you look back outside.
In a Three Crew Aircraft....why can one of the two Pilots (preferably the one handling the controls or tasked with controlling the flight path) not be left free to look outside at least similar to that of being a single pilot in an aircraft?
Are you advocating it is just fine to just not look out if you have something to do that takes more than just a few seconds?
How long do you "not" look out at a time and think it is safe to do so?
I completely agree that an outside scan is 100% necessary, but I also understand that no matter how good the pilot or crew, we will have lapses in our scanning. If you believe that your crew is perfect every flight, your mistaken. Having some sort of onboard traffic advisory has its merits, but it must be used as a supplement along with the eye ball. I have traffic being pumped directly in to the cockpit of my plane, and I certainly scan that display, but I use it as a quick reference, I don't stare at it. I then use its display to correlate traffic outside, and build that mental picture
. I understand that my crew and I are fallible, and we do our best, but I show up to the game with the understanding that we may never be perfect, even though we try. Please use all available resources, technology, and old school airmanship to be as safe as possible. Report accurate position information, only change flight path after clearing, and if you know traffic exists, put lateral or vertical separation between you and the threat.
Mike
. I understand that my crew and I are fallible, and we do our best, but I show up to the game with the understanding that we may never be perfect, even though we try. Please use all available resources, technology, and old school airmanship to be as safe as possible. Report accurate position information, only change flight path after clearing, and if you know traffic exists, put lateral or vertical separation between you and the threat.
Mike