OH You New York Girls....Can't You Dance The Polka!
I suggest you have a good rethink, how does the lack of a rear crew give absolution. The only time I've needed a rear crew was for firing the guns and winching. Didn't even have them for sling loading. Mind you they were helpful giving clearances into tight holes for medevacs when trimming the shrubbery with main rotor was a necessity.
I'll bet the rear crews were lining up to fly with you Maverick.
Thread Starter
Not being part of the US Military
Gee....imagine that!
Sure had us fooled for a bit!
I'll bet the rear crews were lining up to fly with you Maverick
I get somewhat amused watching the EMS helo programs on telly where the back seat is counting down the height above the ground to the pilot, it has its place, but on a designated helipad, runway, tarmac, taxiway? You need a back seater to ground taxi on a strip of tarmac some 62 feet (85 feet overall) in width (Wall street) in a Blackhawk? Even with his lack of currency, SAS could get his beloved Chinook down there, safely, and unaided.
You need a back seater to ground taxi on a strip of tarmac some 62 feet (85 feet overall) in width (Wall street) in a Blackhawk?
Gee....imagine that!
Sure had us fooled for a bit!
Sure had us fooled for a bit!
Thread Starter
Even with his lack of currency, SAS could get his beloved Chinook down there, safely, and unaided.
Perhaps as in this video, SAS?
Warrior Stories: Larry Murphy | Military.com
Oops, forgot to add the following. I contacted a retired USN O-6, aviator. He had a lot of post USN experience doing remote marketing helicopter flyin as well. In answer to my question re USN taxi policy in a non-standard USN environment, his response was: " Navy policy re taxi directing was up to the a/c commander when at remote sites."
Warrior Stories: Larry Murphy | Military.com
Oops, forgot to add the following. I contacted a retired USN O-6, aviator. He had a lot of post USN experience doing remote marketing helicopter flyin as well. In answer to my question re USN taxi policy in a non-standard USN environment, his response was: " Navy policy re taxi directing was up to the a/c commander when at remote sites."
Last edited by JohnDixson; 19th Jan 2018 at 15:30. Reason: Added thought
Well the Skygod in the front seat of this one obviously didn't think so either
As I said in my first post, "Never point fingers, may be you next" making the lead item in the evening news. Everyone I know has made a cock up of greater or lesser proportions, and so have you all.
Where you a CRM instructor too by any chance
I'm wondering how in the world all those lads/lasses taxiing Pumas, 92s, 76s etc about our congested airports manage without backseaters, and all those fixed wing? Best ask for a pay rise for all that added responsibility, doing two jobs at once.
SAS, you let me down, I was singing your praises.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Not being part of the US Military, I won't get to see the accident report or investigation.
Thread Starter
I have flown that wonderful Chinook single crew....for a single circuit....so I suppose I could have left off the mention of the rest of the crew as it was an exception that disproved the Rule.
It was not that great a leap from being an Instructor with two new Students in a Conversion Course but we always had at least one rear crew even on those trips.
For those who talk of Cockpit Gradient....think about that for a moment.
A young Warrant Officer Instructor and Studes ranking up to LTCol.
Or...young Warrant Officer flying Operational missions with the Unit Commander who was not authorized to be an Aircraft Commander.
Lets not overthink this shall we.
The Handling Pilot made a bad turn and knocked off the Tail Wheel...things happened despite the best training and well thought out policies and procedures.
Things happen fast sometimes that all the planning and SOP's cannot prevent.
All this video does is to prove even on what appears to be an open Heliport...there are obstacles that can be a threat to the safe operation of the aircraft.
There is not one of us out here that has not had a close call of some kind despite thinking ourselves as being the consummate professional.
Perhaps just watching the video and thinking....I shall never do that on purpose, is all we need to learn from it.
It was not that great a leap from being an Instructor with two new Students in a Conversion Course but we always had at least one rear crew even on those trips.
For those who talk of Cockpit Gradient....think about that for a moment.
A young Warrant Officer Instructor and Studes ranking up to LTCol.
Or...young Warrant Officer flying Operational missions with the Unit Commander who was not authorized to be an Aircraft Commander.
Lets not overthink this shall we.
The Handling Pilot made a bad turn and knocked off the Tail Wheel...things happened despite the best training and well thought out policies and procedures.
Things happen fast sometimes that all the planning and SOP's cannot prevent.
All this video does is to prove even on what appears to be an open Heliport...there are obstacles that can be a threat to the safe operation of the aircraft.
There is not one of us out here that has not had a close call of some kind despite thinking ourselves as being the consummate professional.
Perhaps just watching the video and thinking....I shall never do that on purpose, is all we need to learn from it.
I'm wondering how in the world all those lads/lasses taxiing Pumas, 92s, 76s etc about our congested airports manage without backseaters, and all those fixed wing?
As with the Kegworth crash where it was quite clear to the cabin crew which engine was on fire but the flight crew still shut down the wrong one......
Some aircraft operate in environments w(h)ere rear crew are needed
SAS, your comment about overthinking missed the bit where I said no one here knows the cause. My comment about gradient was a thought about an experience as a newly minted given the task to ferry a extremely senior officer, highly credentialed as a pilot, but a long, long time ago. Orders from CO were to let him fly. In the cruise over water and low RPM came on, had wound off the throttle (Huey).
Megan, going back to my conversation with the retired USN O-6, who also has a lot of time in UH-60A’s and L’s, was the project pilot for the MH-60k and has a lot of 60B time: his observation was that 1) if that were a 60B, there would not have been an accident and thus 2) he therefore guessed that the pilot was perhaps an experienced 60B pilot and forgot where he/she was. Made me re-look at the video and I think he has a point.
Could well be right John, and more than plausible. The old saying “There's more than one way to skin a cat” could be altered to “There's more than one way to cause an accident.” That though is prompted by a guy telling the story of trouble while landing a Beech 18. Shortly after touchdown one of his legs locked up and the aircraft started pointing to that side of the runway, managed to maintain control by his useful leg using the brake to get the nose back. His point was if the very worse had happened and he not survived, investigators would have put it down to loss of control, but been scratching their heads how a highly experienced pilot in type lost control in benign circumstances.
Presumably, when a pilot changes from one model to the other, there is some training involved which would concentrate on the differences between the two - especially something important like 'where the wheels are'.
If it turns out the pilot was regularly swapping between Seahawk and Blackhawk (maintenance or test pilot for example) then it may be slightly more forgivable but still a major awareness error.
If it turns out the pilot was regularly swapping between Seahawk and Blackhawk (maintenance or test pilot for example) then it may be slightly more forgivable but still a major awareness error.
Thread Starter
Crab,
Do you have a copy of a CFS or other OCU Training Syllabus that includes a segment entitled......"Where the Bloody Wheels Are"?
I suppose you are suggesting the US Navy just throws a set of Keys at a Pilot and tells him/her they can take a Cab out for the day.
Do you have a copy of a CFS or other OCU Training Syllabus that includes a segment entitled......"Where the Bloody Wheels Are"?
I suppose you are suggesting the US Navy just throws a set of Keys at a Pilot and tells him/her they can take a Cab out for the day.
Crab, sorry for the nit, but the USN doesn’t have/operate any Blackhawks. They have Seahawk B’s ( actually now replaced by R’s ) H’s and F’s with the forward tail wheel, and then S’s ( Knighthawk ) with the aft tail wheel. Have no idea if they mix/match pilots-very doubtful, as the missions/equipment are different. However, staffing an S unit with some folks who have experience in the other models wouldn’t be unusual, I’d think.
Last edited by JohnDixson; 21st Jan 2018 at 13:37. Reason: Added thought. Typo
Sas - I have seen, read and taught sections of various syllabi entitled 'Ground Taxying' on several types and the purpose is to build awareness of turning techniques, turning circle, braking techniques and most definitely 'where the bloody wheels are' in relation to the pilot
It looks from the video that it is a US Navy aircraft - 616 Sqn? - and since it has the rear tailwheel, I presume it is therefore an S model.
So a pilot coming from B, H or F models would still have some training before being let loose in an S ( maybe this was an OCU sortie teaching a new convertee) and therefore should know exactly what he is flying and what its ground taxying characteristics are.
Still looking for some mitigation in respect of the f**kup
It looks from the video that it is a US Navy aircraft - 616 Sqn? - and since it has the rear tailwheel, I presume it is therefore an S model.
So a pilot coming from B, H or F models would still have some training before being let loose in an S ( maybe this was an OCU sortie teaching a new convertee) and therefore should know exactly what he is flying and what its ground taxying characteristics are.
Still looking for some mitigation in respect of the f**kup