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Old 3rd Jan 2018, 16:44   #41 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nr Fairy View Post
According to the news report now up on the BBC it seems so.

The relevant section is "His son Quintin said: "My dad was on final approach to land and was approximately 100ft from the runway.

"He had right of way and was committed to land.

"The helicopter took off underneath him and made contact with his aircraft."
The newspaper reports say this:

Quote:
The helicopter – which was landing after fighting a forest fire – was reported to have been 10 metres from the ground when its tail rotor clipped the ultralight Bucker.
It also says:
Quote:
Donald’s friend John Fife said last night: “I spoke to Quintin on Sunday.

“The private Spanish airstrip has no air traffic control. There is a concern that the firefighting helicopter was unaware of protocols.

“The family are concerned about why that helicopter was using that airfield. It was some distance from the forest fires.”
Well, it was probably based there! Half the Apron is Inaer exclusive use and this machine was Babcock/Inaer: http://www.aerodromodemutxamel.es/we...Lemu-05_15.pdf

and, whilst technically true that it does not have Air Traffic Control, it does have an AFIS: http://www.aerodromodemutxamel.es/we...rodrome-plane/

Last edited by 212man; 3rd Jan 2018 at 18:07.
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Old 3rd Jan 2018, 17:47   #42 (permalink)
 
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I believe that the fixed wing was on short finals when the helicopter took off and flew into it. That would explain the damage to the main rotor. It isn't the first and I'm sure it won't be the last.
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Old 3rd Jan 2018, 20:44   #43 (permalink)
 
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I'm a light fixed-wing pilot with NO rotary-wing experience or knowledge.
What is forward and down vision like in short-final configuration on that aircraft? Some biplanes would have the pilot sidesliping and peering out one side of the cockpit, and therefore blind to anything on other side.
What is the airflow like at that height above the rotor?
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Old 6th Jan 2018, 16:24   #44 (permalink)
 
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It's been a tragic accident and condolences to the family is fisrt.
Story after talking to the heli crew is so far:
The heli was coming back to its base (LEMU) after fighting a fire with a crew of two and the full crew of firefighters on board (7/8 pax).
They were in short final when impacted from behind by the fixwing. Lost T/R and damaged MRB´s. Sudden change of CG nose down but somehow (all intuitive manouvering) got to the ground from around 20 ft AGL when landing was interrupted by collision. On board of helicopter nobody got hurt.
Intention was to autorotate but everything went fast and apparently friction on throttle was very hard...anyway i doubt It wold have get any better.
I think the crew did the best job it could be done in such a situation.
RIP the fixwing pilot
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Old 6th Jan 2018, 17:43   #45 (permalink)
 
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In Spain at uncontrolled fields, is the use of Unicom generally in place?
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Old 6th Jan 2018, 20:40   #46 (permalink)
 
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This, and checking long final before turning base to final.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 02:41   #47 (permalink)
 
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With the 412 on short final, presumably with some air speed and a low power setting, it was fortuitous that the loss of the tail rotor happened at that point, and not prior when they were higher up, or later when at a high power setting after losing translational lift. Assuming the pilot instinctively lowered collective after impact and accepted higher ROD at ground contact kept enough directional control to stop it getting sideways and rolling over. The pilot has probably achieved the best outcome possible.
But I don't know why so many 212/412 pilots friction the throttles so tightly. If rigged properly just light friction and occasional rotational pressure on the throttles is all you need. You should be able to roll off the throttles after landing without touching the frictions.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 05:08   #48 (permalink)
 
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The pilot has probably achieved the best outcome possible.
Looking at what is left of the blades I think the "pilot" was by then a hapless passenger!
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 08:04   #49 (permalink)
 
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Looking at what is left of the blades I think the "pilot" was by then a hapless passenger!
I hear you...I think if I was the pilot in the same circumstances it would be a WTF was that? moment and then arrived in a cloud of dust at the bottom without having done any conscious piloting stuff at all. If this 412 was fitted with a FDR I'd like to see the collective position trace during the accident sequence. Sorry to learn of the outcome for the other pilot.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 11:33   #50 (permalink)
 
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I still think the pilot "instinctively" did manouvered the controls, and that made some differences at the time of landing...not just a hopeless pax
Actually he had to evercome an extremely nose down attitude after the impact
He did not just "let do"... he DID a very good job. Hats off ...
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 12:29   #51 (permalink)
 
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...then arrived in a cloud of dust at the bottom without having done any conscious piloting stuff at all.
Darn good reflexive actions then as it turns out!

Sometimes that is all you have left to rely upon.

Crew and Passengers of the Helicopter made it to live another day....that to me is a successful outcome of a very bad situation for them.

Tragic outcome for the other Pilot.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 19:10   #52 (permalink)
 
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I don't know what happened in this tragic accident but i can tell you that the FW pilot was a great guy, a very competent helicopter pilot with 1000's of hours on Hughes 300's, 500's and laterly a gazelle.I flew with him in Scotland and Spain many times both in his 500D and FW aircraft and he was a very safe, competent pilot. Glad the helicopter guys involved survived ok and lets hope we find out what really happened and lessons are learned.
RIP Donald a true gent.
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Old 8th Jan 2018, 10:24   #53 (permalink)
 
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we sure have a lesson to learn from this one.
Bladegrabber, around LEMU rumors say he was indeed a very nice guy and a gent.
Very sad for everybody around
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Old 8th Jan 2018, 12:51   #54 (permalink)
 
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This issue has bugged me for many years. It should be blindingly obvious that malfunctions like high side/low side engine and T/R problems require immediate throttle control.
How does one tighten the Frictions to the point the throttle(s) cannot be moved?

I suppose you also objected to any Cyclic Friction as well.

It amused me to see Sperry add a minimum Cyclic Friction when they installed their Helipilot system on the 212/412 thus demonstrating the value of cyclic friction.

As the cyclic friction thing is not in discussion the point is both of the cyclic and throttle frictions can be over-ridden by the pilot and the application of friction on the Cyclic and the Throttle(s) can serve a useful purpose.

Are we not making far too much about the amount of friction being applied?

As to "Immediate" action being required....on a Low Side Failure.....really?

On a High Side....I thought raising the Collective was the "immediate" action.
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Old 8th Jan 2018, 13:34   #55 (permalink)
 
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Just to echo what Bladegrabber has said.
I flew with Donald many times in Aberdeen, both when flying helicopters and also fixed wing. He was a very conscientious and correct pilot and he will be sorely missed .My condolences to his family
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Old 8th Jan 2018, 15:15   #56 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by SASless View Post
..Are we not making far too much about the amount of friction being applied?
Post #44 refers. Throttle frictions too tight to enter auto-rotation. It is possible to tighten the throttle frictions so it's not readily possible to overcome the frictions and roll off both throttles together with one hand in a single action.

For those not familiar with the throttle setup in 212/412. The engine throttles are twist grips which are integral to the collective lever, with a knurled knob at the top of engine 1 grip, and bottom of engine 2 grip, for setting a variable friction of each throttle. It isn't possible to friction/de-friction both throttles at the same time with one hand, or to overcome the frictions when attempting to move both throttles together if the frictions are set too tight.
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Old 8th Jan 2018, 16:06   #57 (permalink)
 
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I shall have to disagree with you.

In order to set the Frictions that tight would take an abnormal technique.

The friction releases easier than they tighten.

I find it hard to visualize anyone being unable to roll off a throttle due to the friction being too tight.....it might happen but only if the person is not sincerely trying to move those throttles.

I flew the Huey, S58T, and 212/412's.....and it does not take a Gorilla Grits Breakfast to give you the strength to move the throttles even with the Frictions set firmly.

When one is harder to rotate than the other does make for a bit of difficulty if you have a poor grip.

I too have watched people kill themselves in the Sim....but it was never from anything to do with Throttle Frictions.
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Old 8th Jan 2018, 18:58   #58 (permalink)
 
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To add to the point made by SAS: I assume the emergency procedure for a tail rotor thrust loss is to close the throttles and perform an autorotative descent/landing. Hence, I'd expect the rigging instructions would address the maximum friction that can be set so as to allow this action by the pilot. Further, a cross check of that maximum friction being not excessive would be an item in the Maintenance Test Flight Checklist.
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Old 8th Jan 2018, 19:12   #59 (permalink)
 
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In the same light is minimum collective friction - don't know how many Bell mediums I have flown where it is set too low for mamby pamby types.

Collective bounce or man up with Gorilla Grits - your call. That is after you have described what "collective bounce" is to most.

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The problem with experience is it "walks"
Something that PPRuNe does address in some small way at least after you sort out the dross.
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Old 8th Jan 2018, 21:09   #60 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
How does one tighten the Frictions to the point the throttle(s) cannot be moved?
Quite easily, actually.

And I won't address your cyclic friction comments as they are not relevant to this discussion.
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