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NH90 Crash in Oman

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NH90 Crash in Oman

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Old 27th Dec 2017, 22:44
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NH90 Crash in Oman

Seems the Oman Air Force had an NH90 crash and kill one.

https://defpost.com/royal-air-force-...nnah-air-base/
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Old 27th Dec 2017, 23:17
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I wonder why they need a navigator in the crew, aren't their NH90 fitted with GPS?
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Old 28th Dec 2017, 02:02
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Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
I wonder why they need a navigator in the crew, aren't their NH90 fitted with GPS?
Surely a crewy & not a navigator, according to google Oman is 310,000 sq.klms, you could see the other side from 500 ft.!
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Old 28th Dec 2017, 02:09
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The report said the navigator was killed...so unless navigator is a fancy name for the crewman, hence my question.
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Old 28th Dec 2017, 07:27
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"I wonder why they need a navigator in the crew, aren't their NH90 fitted with GPS?"
GPS can be jammed / denied / spoofed. Those that rely utterly on space-based support risk being non-effective if it is interfered with. Several units now practice "no space" days, with no GPS or SatCom used, just to make crews and mission planners think about that "worst day" scenario.

For a viewpoint on what space-denied might look like, read "Ghost Fleet".....

In the meantime, condolences to the family of the unfortunate casualty in this accident.
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Old 28th Dec 2017, 09:41
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Originally Posted by Evalu8ter View Post
"I wonder why they need a navigator in the crew, aren't their NH90 fitted with GPS?"
GPS can be jammed / denied / spoofed. Those that rely utterly on space-based support risk being non-effective if it is interfered with. Several units now practice "no space" days, with no GPS or SatCom used, just to make crews and mission planners think about that "worst day" scenario.

For a viewpoint on what space-denied might look like, read "Ghost Fleet".....

In the meantime, condolences to the family of the unfortunate casualty in this accident.
Then you still don't need a "navigator" in an NH90.... without GPS is not a major issue, as I'm sure an NH90 has an INS which will keep its position accurate within a few hundred meters over a couple of hours flying...
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Old 28th Dec 2017, 10:36
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I suspect it is based on how they structured their Air Force, similar to the RAF - a Navigator could be badged Nav but actually operate as a helicopter crewman.

The RAF put Navs in the LHS of Chinooks for a while - they were doing most of what a co-pilot would do - comms, nav, flight planning, fuel management etc.

Most Navs on helicopters came across from FW - as officers rather than the mostly NCO crewmen - and performed many of the same functions.
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Old 28th Dec 2017, 17:40
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So military multi crew pilots cannot navigate themselves? 😏 The Mil should start including navigation training. It would save some personnel. 😉
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Old 28th Dec 2017, 19:36
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"Then you still don't need a "navigator" in an NH90.... without GPS is not a major issue, as I'm sure an NH90 has an INS which will keep its position accurate within a few hundred meters over a couple of hours flying..."

....which is more than enough to put you the wrong side of disputed border in that part of the world.....nothing like expecting to see a feature inside another (not exactly friendly....) country turn up in the 10 o'clock when you were expecting to see it in the 2 o'clock while flying north up a border....

Crab, yep, we had navs on Chinooks, but there were also plenty on Puma, Wessex and Merlin. Many came from the V-Force, others from FJs such as the F4 at OSD. We also trained ab initio navs for a while as they were quicker/cheaper to train than pilots and we were short on numbers in the late 90s.
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Old 28th Dec 2017, 20:45
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So military multi crew pilots cannot navigate themselves? �� The Mil should start including navigation training. It would save some personnel. ��
Oh dear me!
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Old 28th Dec 2017, 21:33
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Yes, we never thought of teaching pilots to navigate...........really??
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Old 29th Dec 2017, 02:31
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Yes, we never thought of teaching pilots to navigate...........really??
So little old me sitting by myself up front with just a map sitting on my lap, I guess I must be a navigator and not a pilot. But then one day as bad luck would have it my map blew out the window and I was then really all by myself. I thought bugger, no map and no GPS, and certainly no INS. I guess that means I must have been a passenger.
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Old 29th Dec 2017, 08:27
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I think I'm correct in saying that team Chinook still does have a navigator or 2 knocking about....

As for pilots map reading and flying at the same time, perfectly feasible with modern kit, the issue is one of distraction and spending too much time eyes in at low level. Therein lies the key difference between mil and civil flying.
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Old 30th Dec 2017, 00:22
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Funny how our minds work, isn't it? Bloke from 'somewhere else' gets killed in a helicopter and the sole topic of conversation is navs for helicopters or not.

Another thread about a crash just a couple down is full of RIPs and condolences. Just an observation, and for what it's worth a message of goodwill to any of his mates who might be reading (not that I'm claiming to be a paragon of virtue ...)
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Old 30th Dec 2017, 00:23
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Anyway, back to nav bashing ... nothing wrong with that!!
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Old 30th Dec 2017, 23:27
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However did we fly "A" Model Chinooks with no Nav Dudes, no GPS, no INS, no Decca, no Loran, no TACAN....just a couple of young fellas sat up front with a map, compass, clock, and a FM Radio to call Arty for a Flare near a location at night.

I do wonder how I got old enough to retire thinking back on it.....but at least it made for lots of flying hours considering the meandering routes we must have flown looking for something on the ground that matched up with the big print on the map.
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Old 31st Dec 2017, 21:12
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However did we fly "A" Model Chinooks with no Nav Dudes, no GPS, no INS, no Decca, no Loran, no TACAN....just a couple of young fellas sat up front with a map, compass, clock, and a FM Radio to call Arty for a Flare near a location at night.

But I bet you had stick trim....................try all the above in a Whirlwind 7!! Maps flying out of the window not at all unusual. They used to say silly things like I learned about flying from that. Actually hang on more tightly to the bloody map or shut the window!!
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Old 1st Jan 2018, 00:02
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Early years on a UN Contract spraying Rivers in the Republic of Upper Volta, Ghana, Mali, and Ivory Coast....we hand drew many of our own maps....there being none for many parts of where we were flying.

We left on Monday Morning and usually did not talk to another person by radio until returning on Saturday Morning.
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Old 7th Jan 2018, 22:29
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So military multi crew pilots cannot navigate themselves? �� The Mil should start including navigation training. It would save some personnel. ��
Its more of a mission management role than pure navigation. Operating an INS system is fairly easy, but a little more challenging when you are working off a mission execution checklist, trying to achieve a TOT +/- 5 seconds to fit in with an airstrike or artillery barrage, trying to keep the right speed so the 8 aircraft following you can maintain position and talk to a JTAC on the ground and/or fast air/AWACS and flicking between maps and imagery to identify a compound, whilst its 68C in the cockpit and people are shooting at you.


Hope that clears it up - have a nice day in the circuit, I hope the beer at the flying club isn't to warm.
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