EASA Export to FAA
Thread Starter
EASA Export to FAA
Good Afternoon All,
Need some assistance or advice.
Has anybody carried out an Export CofA from EASA to the FAA for a used EASA built Helicopter (ie Airbus etc....)
Reason I am asking is, we have been asked to obtain a letter from the manufacturer (Airbus) stating that an EASA Built Airbus conforms to the FAA Built Airbus (and not by the means of checking the TCDS, we have tried this approach but the CAA wont accept it
). They actually want Airbus to state that there are no differences, or if there is, what they are, so these can be put on the Export CofA. We have approached Airbus, and they have said, they have never been asked for this before and by the sounds of it, will cost a lot of money to get.
So, the question is, if you have carried out an export recently, how did you get round this ?, please pm me if need be
Need some assistance or advice.
Has anybody carried out an Export CofA from EASA to the FAA for a used EASA built Helicopter (ie Airbus etc....)
Reason I am asking is, we have been asked to obtain a letter from the manufacturer (Airbus) stating that an EASA Built Airbus conforms to the FAA Built Airbus (and not by the means of checking the TCDS, we have tried this approach but the CAA wont accept it
). They actually want Airbus to state that there are no differences, or if there is, what they are, so these can be put on the Export CofA. We have approached Airbus, and they have said, they have never been asked for this before and by the sounds of it, will cost a lot of money to get.So, the question is, if you have carried out an export recently, how did you get round this ?, please pm me if need be
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TCDS says, in part:
The Export C of A should contain the following statement: “The aircraft
covered by this certificate has been examined, tested, and found to comply with
the type design approved under U.S. Type Certificate Number H11EU and to be
in a condition for safe operation.”
Is that what they are asking for?
The Export C of A should contain the following statement: “The aircraft
covered by this certificate has been examined, tested, and found to comply with
the type design approved under U.S. Type Certificate Number H11EU and to be
in a condition for safe operation.”
Is that what they are asking for?
Keepitup,
This will be a throwback I think to protect the US arm of AH to stop/prohibit slight differences in the way the aircraft was originally sold in the U.S.
i.e. to stop EU sourced machines ending up in the U.S. There was also a can of worms back in the day with Alouette 3's or 2's that the FAA and AH would rather not repeat.
The FAA TCDS has a statement at the bottom -
I think you need to be talking to the DGAC as it is the original country of manufacture and they can issue an Export C of A.
See DGAC - OSAC - start here.
This will be a throwback I think to protect the US arm of AH to stop/prohibit slight differences in the way the aircraft was originally sold in the U.S.
i.e. to stop EU sourced machines ending up in the U.S. There was also a can of worms back in the day with Alouette 3's or 2's that the FAA and AH would rather not repeat.
Export of a UK registered EASA aircraft to the United States of America, Canada or Brazil
Your aircraft needs to comply with the requirements of the importing authority.
The French Direction Generale de l’Aviation Civile (DGAC) originally type certificated this rotorcraft under
its type certificate TC 168. The FAA validated this product under U.S. Type Certificate Number H11EU.
its type certificate TC 168. The FAA validated this product under U.S. Type Certificate Number H11EU.
DATA PERTINENT TO ALL MODELS.
Serial Numbers Eligible.
The French Government "Certificat de Navigabilite pour Exportation"endorsed as noted below under "Import Requirements" must be submitted for
each individual aircraft for which application for FAA certification is made.
Import Requirements.
The FAA can issue a U.S. airworthiness certificate based on a National Aviation Authority (NAA) Export Certificate of Airworthiness (Export C of A) signed by
a representative of the French Generale de l’Aviation Civile (DGAC) on behalf of the European Community.The Export C of A should contain the following statement:
“The aircraft covered by this certificate has been examined, tested, and found to comply with the type design approved under U.S. Type Certificate Number H11EU
and to be in a condition for safe operation.”
Serial Numbers Eligible.
The French Government "Certificat de Navigabilite pour Exportation"endorsed as noted below under "Import Requirements" must be submitted for
each individual aircraft for which application for FAA certification is made.
Import Requirements.
The FAA can issue a U.S. airworthiness certificate based on a National Aviation Authority (NAA) Export Certificate of Airworthiness (Export C of A) signed by
a representative of the French Generale de l’Aviation Civile (DGAC) on behalf of the European Community.The Export C of A should contain the following statement:
“The aircraft covered by this certificate has been examined, tested, and found to comply with the type design approved under U.S. Type Certificate Number H11EU
and to be in a condition for safe operation.”
See DGAC - OSAC - start here.
keep:
There is no "getting around this." Every foreign built aircraft imported in the US, new or used, has some form of conformity statement requirement provided the state civil aviation authority has a bilateral agreement with the US/FAA. And France/Germany (Airbus) does.
Who is complying with your Export C Of A? They should know or have access to all the requirements.
RVDT is correct, the conformity statement must come from the civil aviation authority like the DGAC. I do not know how the EASA figures into this. But who ever told you to see Airbus for the statement is not correct.
There are a few FAA guidance documents in the form of Advisory Circulars that can help you understand the US export/import process. Plus you can contact a FAA IFO for more info.
However, it is very important to get your paperwork complete and legal BEFORE you ship aircraft to the US. Once here if the paperwork is not correct will cause you grief beyond belief.
Good luck.
W1
There is no "getting around this." Every foreign built aircraft imported in the US, new or used, has some form of conformity statement requirement provided the state civil aviation authority has a bilateral agreement with the US/FAA. And France/Germany (Airbus) does.
Who is complying with your Export C Of A? They should know or have access to all the requirements.
RVDT is correct, the conformity statement must come from the civil aviation authority like the DGAC. I do not know how the EASA figures into this. But who ever told you to see Airbus for the statement is not correct.
There are a few FAA guidance documents in the form of Advisory Circulars that can help you understand the US export/import process. Plus you can contact a FAA IFO for more info.
However, it is very important to get your paperwork complete and legal BEFORE you ship aircraft to the US. Once here if the paperwork is not correct will cause you grief beyond belief.
Good luck.
W1
Keepitup
Possibly this is not about the TCDS, but probably about modifications and / or repairs installed on a 30 year old helicopter (or older) under CAA / EASA regs.
But whatever you do.....DO NOT deregister the helicopter until you have that piece of paperwork, the pain would then start.
Might be easier to contact your local FAA DER, who may sort out a different route for export, the CAA were B.......S to me some years ago so had to use that route with an AS355F1.
Possibly this is not about the TCDS, but probably about modifications and / or repairs installed on a 30 year old helicopter (or older) under CAA / EASA regs.
But whatever you do.....DO NOT deregister the helicopter until you have that piece of paperwork, the pain would then start.
Might be easier to contact your local FAA DER, who may sort out a different route for export, the CAA were B.......S to me some years ago so had to use that route with an AS355F1.
Thread Starter
TCDS says, in part:
The Export C of A should contain the following statement: “The aircraft
covered by this certificate has been examined, tested, and found to comply with
the type design approved under U.S. Type Certificate Number H11EU and to be
in a condition for safe operation.”
Is that what they are asking for?
The Export C of A should contain the following statement: “The aircraft
covered by this certificate has been examined, tested, and found to comply with
the type design approved under U.S. Type Certificate Number H11EU and to be
in a condition for safe operation.”
Is that what they are asking for?
Hey CertGuy - Nope !!!!, they want to know it complies with the 'Build Standard', not the TCDS!!!
We even said, we as a CAMO would certify the aircraft under this, but they want a statement from Airbus Helicopters that there are no difference and if so, what are they, so they can put it on the export.
Thread Starter
keep:
There is no "getting around this." Every foreign built aircraft imported in the US, new or used, has some form of conformity statement requirement provided the state civil aviation authority has a bilateral agreement with the US/FAA. And France/Germany (Airbus) does.
Who is complying with your Export C Of A? They should know or have access to all the requirements.
RVDT is correct, the conformity statement must come from the civil aviation authority like the DGAC. I do not know how the EASA figures into this. But who ever told you to see Airbus for the statement is not correct.
There are a few FAA guidance documents in the form of Advisory Circulars that can help you understand the US export/import process. Plus you can contact a FAA IFO for more info.
However, it is very important to get your paperwork complete and legal BEFORE you ship aircraft to the US. Once here if the paperwork is not correct will cause you grief beyond belief.
Good luck.
W1
There is no "getting around this." Every foreign built aircraft imported in the US, new or used, has some form of conformity statement requirement provided the state civil aviation authority has a bilateral agreement with the US/FAA. And France/Germany (Airbus) does.
Who is complying with your Export C Of A? They should know or have access to all the requirements.
RVDT is correct, the conformity statement must come from the civil aviation authority like the DGAC. I do not know how the EASA figures into this. But who ever told you to see Airbus for the statement is not correct.
There are a few FAA guidance documents in the form of Advisory Circulars that can help you understand the US export/import process. Plus you can contact a FAA IFO for more info.
However, it is very important to get your paperwork complete and legal BEFORE you ship aircraft to the US. Once here if the paperwork is not correct will cause you grief beyond belief.
Good luck.
W1
The CAA are the AA to carry out the Export, EASA is the governing body over DGAC and the CAA are acting on behalf of EASA. I have no problem with the FAA side of things, the brick wall is the CAA, wanting the statement from Airbus.
Thread Starter
Keepitup,
This will be a throwback I think to protect the US arm of AH to stop/prohibit slight differences in the way the aircraft was originally sold in the U.S.
i.e. to stop EU sourced machines ending up in the U.S. There was also a can of worms back in the day with Alouette 3's or 2's that the FAA and AH would rather not repeat.
The FAA TCDS has a statement at the bottom -
I think you need to be talking to the DGAC as it is the original country of manufacture and they can issue an Export C of A.
See DGAC - OSAC - start here.
This will be a throwback I think to protect the US arm of AH to stop/prohibit slight differences in the way the aircraft was originally sold in the U.S.
i.e. to stop EU sourced machines ending up in the U.S. There was also a can of worms back in the day with Alouette 3's or 2's that the FAA and AH would rather not repeat.
The FAA TCDS has a statement at the bottom -
I think you need to be talking to the DGAC as it is the original country of manufacture and they can issue an Export C of A.
See DGAC - OSAC - start here.
Keepitup,
The important point is you need an FAA C of A ultimately and you must comply with the requirements of their TCDS.
Note that the above statement says "should" so I would be asking the FAA about that. It could easily be a term that is now no longer relevant.
The original Export C of A when it was new stands for nothing now.
This aircraft is pre-EASA days and it is do with "State of Manufacture" and Production Certification and Conformity etc etc.
For me I would be talking to the FAA guy who is going to issue the FAA C of A.
EASA Form 27 looks to be pretty straightforward. I note that the bi-lateral agreement with EASA (UK) quotes -
I think someone may be reading too much into it.
The important point is you need an FAA C of A ultimately and you must comply with the requirements of their TCDS.
The French Government "Certificat de Navigabilite pour Exportation" endorsed as noted below -
a National Aviation Authority (NAA) Export Certificate of Airworthiness (Export C of A) signed by a representative of the
French Generale de l’Aviation Civile (DGAC) on behalf of the European Community. The Export C of A should contain the
following statement: “The aircraft covered by this certificate has been examined, tested, and found to comply with the
type design approved under U.S. Type Certificate Number H11EU and to be in a condition for safe operation.”
a National Aviation Authority (NAA) Export Certificate of Airworthiness (Export C of A) signed by a representative of the
French Generale de l’Aviation Civile (DGAC) on behalf of the European Community. The Export C of A should contain the
following statement: “The aircraft covered by this certificate has been examined, tested, and found to comply with the
type design approved under U.S. Type Certificate Number H11EU and to be in a condition for safe operation.”
The original Export C of A when it was new stands for nothing now.
This aircraft is pre-EASA days and it is do with "State of Manufacture" and Production Certification and Conformity etc etc.
For me I would be talking to the FAA guy who is going to issue the FAA C of A.
EASA Form 27 looks to be pretty straightforward. I note that the bi-lateral agreement with EASA (UK) quotes -
Used aircraft conforming to an FAA-approved design, maintained in accordance with EASA Part 145 or Part M, as applicable, when accompanied by an EASA Form 27, Export Certificate of Airworthiness, or a U.K. Export Certificate of Airworthiness issued before
September 28, 2012. If relevant provisions of Part M are not yet implemented, the applicable maintenance requirements will be those of the U.K., and specified on the U.K. Export Certificate of Airworthiness or EASA Form 27.
September 28, 2012. If relevant provisions of Part M are not yet implemented, the applicable maintenance requirements will be those of the U.K., and specified on the U.K. Export Certificate of Airworthiness or EASA Form 27.
There is no way around this requirement for the Statement to come from the DGCA, as it is a specific requirement for FAA importation, and the CAA requirement in order to issue the Export C of A for an aircraft heading for FAA Registration. It is a Statement that at initial build, the product complied with and was certified under the Civil Regulations of the time - specifically, not a military product.
As RVDT notes this issue runs back to a very long legal battle with the FAA over imported Sud-Aviation Allouette 2 & 3 helicopters that had their Standard Airworthiness Certificates revoked (Alouette Helicopters Declared Illegal Immigrants By The Faa).
It is probably best to engage with your local Airbus tech rep to assist you in getting this Statement. Have all your paperwork ready, including initial C of A and submit it, or better still arrange a meeting and take it all with you - I know of no alternate means of compliance.
Bit of background reading which may probably explain the intransigence. http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions...d/102355.P.pdf
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory.../N8300_124.pdf
As RVDT notes this issue runs back to a very long legal battle with the FAA over imported Sud-Aviation Allouette 2 & 3 helicopters that had their Standard Airworthiness Certificates revoked (Alouette Helicopters Declared Illegal Immigrants By The Faa).
It is probably best to engage with your local Airbus tech rep to assist you in getting this Statement. Have all your paperwork ready, including initial C of A and submit it, or better still arrange a meeting and take it all with you - I know of no alternate means of compliance.
Bit of background reading which may probably explain the intransigence. http://www.ca4.uscourts.gov/Opinions...d/102355.P.pdf
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory.../N8300_124.pdf
Thread Starter
Cyclic, how can another country issue an export for aircraft not under their wing, if it was Registered in France, fair enough, but it's not, regardless if it was manufactured there. I know tha FAA states this, but I think that needs updating!
We have talked with Airbus rep and the response was, don't hold your breath, the person who might be able to help in France is not back in until the 4th Dec, and yes, I said person and might, apparently there is only one person. Alternative is, Airbus subcontract this work to someone else which will take weeks just to get a quote, then we won't be happy with the costing. THIS is the response from Airbus!!!
They have never been asked for a statement of conformity before.
On a side note, I have now contacted EASA for clarification and I await their response, this has been going on for two months!
We have talked with Airbus rep and the response was, don't hold your breath, the person who might be able to help in France is not back in until the 4th Dec, and yes, I said person and might, apparently there is only one person. Alternative is, Airbus subcontract this work to someone else which will take weeks just to get a quote, then we won't be happy with the costing. THIS is the response from Airbus!!!
They have never been asked for a statement of conformity before.
On a side note, I have now contacted EASA for clarification and I await their response, this has been going on for two months!
Last edited by Keepitup; 21st Nov 2017 at 21:12.
I would try Airbus Helicopters USA tech support direct to see if they can assist. They certainly understand Customer Service and most likely have been through the same situation before. No harm in trying.
Airbus Helicopters, Inc. | Helicopter Repair |Contact Details | Texas | Mississipi
Airbus Helicopters, Inc. | Helicopter Repair |Contact Details | Texas | Mississipi
Keep:
While I think I understand the point you're trying to make, something is missing from this conversation that I can't put my finger on.
I've been on the receiving end of a number of helicopters imported into the US and few airplane from Canada/SA. I've seen the paperwork. Granted it's been a few years but I doubt anything has changed... on this side.
So you have a used AS355F1 currently in the UK(?) that you want to export to the US?
Are you the owner/seller/agent of this aircraft?
Are you providing the Export C of A for this aircraft as part of a purchase agreement or do you plan to operate this aircraft in the US?
Who is providing the Export C of A services to complete this document?
Answer these and I'll send more questions.
The reason for the conformity statement is to ensure the aircraft meets the US Type Certificate (Type Design) import requirements and the aircraft has not been modified in the origin country(s). For example, the UK may legally allow adding a 4th M/R blade to an AS355F1, but there is no reciprocal method to approve that modification in the US.
And as a side note, there are a number of other requirements to import other than a C of A.
W1
While I think I understand the point you're trying to make, something is missing from this conversation that I can't put my finger on.
I've been on the receiving end of a number of helicopters imported into the US and few airplane from Canada/SA. I've seen the paperwork. Granted it's been a few years but I doubt anything has changed... on this side.
So you have a used AS355F1 currently in the UK(?) that you want to export to the US?
Are you the owner/seller/agent of this aircraft?
Are you providing the Export C of A for this aircraft as part of a purchase agreement or do you plan to operate this aircraft in the US?
Who is providing the Export C of A services to complete this document?
Answer these and I'll send more questions.
The reason for the conformity statement is to ensure the aircraft meets the US Type Certificate (Type Design) import requirements and the aircraft has not been modified in the origin country(s). For example, the UK may legally allow adding a 4th M/R blade to an AS355F1, but there is no reciprocal method to approve that modification in the US.
And as a side note, there are a number of other requirements to import other than a C of A.
W1
Keep:
After rereading your answers and checking here: https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-ind...ered-Aircraft/
I see where the "aircraft build statement" is coming from. But to imply getting this statement from the OEM without a physical inspection sounds to me like a NEW aircraft requirement not a USED aircraft requirement. And this "build statement" appears to be an administrative item within the CAA as I don't see anything similar on the EASA site for an Export CA.
Further down on that web page it mentions scheduling a CAA survey of the aircraft. Seems to me that survey would be sufficient to issue your C of A and provide the required conformity statement (TCDS) as that is how it is done here on a used aircraft.
Another option that may still be available (not sure) is to bring a FAA DAR over and have him complete the Export (aircraft wise only) for you since the FAA is the "importing authority."
Regardless of how you obtain your C of A, someone needs to physically verify the aircraft does meet the FAA TCDS before it leaves. If you are the seller your C of A is only half the process in getting the aircraft available to the buyer in the States especially if using an escrow service for the purchase.
When the aircraft hits the US the buyer will need a DAR to issue a FAA Airworthiness Certificate which requires the DAR to perform a physical inspection of the aircraft and records prior to issue. If he finds something amiss now, you could be screwed as the new certification process takes place only AFTER the aircraft has a N reg issued and the G reg is de-registered.
Then the real fun begins as most escrow services will not release the purchase funds until the aircraft is certified in the destination country.
Good luck... again!
W1
After rereading your answers and checking here: https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-ind...ered-Aircraft/
I see where the "aircraft build statement" is coming from. But to imply getting this statement from the OEM without a physical inspection sounds to me like a NEW aircraft requirement not a USED aircraft requirement. And this "build statement" appears to be an administrative item within the CAA as I don't see anything similar on the EASA site for an Export CA.
Further down on that web page it mentions scheduling a CAA survey of the aircraft. Seems to me that survey would be sufficient to issue your C of A and provide the required conformity statement (TCDS) as that is how it is done here on a used aircraft.
Another option that may still be available (not sure) is to bring a FAA DAR over and have him complete the Export (aircraft wise only) for you since the FAA is the "importing authority."
Regardless of how you obtain your C of A, someone needs to physically verify the aircraft does meet the FAA TCDS before it leaves. If you are the seller your C of A is only half the process in getting the aircraft available to the buyer in the States especially if using an escrow service for the purchase.
When the aircraft hits the US the buyer will need a DAR to issue a FAA Airworthiness Certificate which requires the DAR to perform a physical inspection of the aircraft and records prior to issue. If he finds something amiss now, you could be screwed as the new certification process takes place only AFTER the aircraft has a N reg issued and the G reg is de-registered.
Then the real fun begins as most escrow services will not release the purchase funds until the aircraft is certified in the destination country.
Good luck... again!
W1
One of the problems we had was that the AS355F1 (IFR) had numerous "CAA" modifications on it from new at the Aerospatiale disptributors Mcalpine Helicopters.
Mods such as 3 axis coupled autopilot, large instrument panel, Radar, radio fits and other modifications, which was a major headache as the modification paperwork from 1985 was not available anymore, and not in the records apart from a few lines of entries in the log books.
That was 15 years ago now, before EASA started, heaven knows how we would get round it now.
Mods such as 3 axis coupled autopilot, large instrument panel, Radar, radio fits and other modifications, which was a major headache as the modification paperwork from 1985 was not available anymore, and not in the records apart from a few lines of entries in the log books.
That was 15 years ago now, before EASA started, heaven knows how we would get round it now.
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Pea. That is easier now, each others approved mods are accepted under
the bilateral agreement. Each others type certs are also validated, in this case
DGAC TC168 validated as FAA H11EU
Clear as day to everybody but not the caa bureaucrat in the case.
the bilateral agreement. Each others type certs are also validated, in this case
DGAC TC168 validated as FAA H11EU
Clear as day to everybody but not the caa bureaucrat in the case.
