Condition for Vortex Ring
From the Chief Instructor - Robinson Helicopters.
“Settling With Power”
In the U.S., there seems to be a great deal of confusion on whether the vortex ring state should be properly or improperly referred to as “settling with power.” The controversy stems from a condition completely different from the vortex ring state, in which engine power required exceeds engine power available.
Over the years, various aviation organizations have used conflicting terminology in discussing these very different conditions.
In the 1950s, the U.S. Navy referred to the vortex ring state as “power settling” and used the term “settling with power” for the power-available-vs.-power-required situation. Not wanting to let the Navy set the standard, the U.S. Army reversed the terminology in the 1960s. Army pilots in Vietnam used the term “settling with power” to refer to the vortex ring state and “power settling” when they were trying to get out of a tight landing zone with too many troops onboard.
The FAA uses “settling with power” in its discussion of vortex ring state in both the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook and the Practical Test Standards (probably because there are more former Army pilots in the FAA than former Navy pilots).
Outside the U.S., the picture is much clearer; for the most part, the term used is “vortex ring state.”
I say, let’s call it what it is—the “vortex ring state,” not some vague term that has different meanings to different pilots.—Tim Tucker
Unfortunately he then spoils it all by supporting the Vuichard technique.
“Settling With Power”
In the U.S., there seems to be a great deal of confusion on whether the vortex ring state should be properly or improperly referred to as “settling with power.” The controversy stems from a condition completely different from the vortex ring state, in which engine power required exceeds engine power available.
Over the years, various aviation organizations have used conflicting terminology in discussing these very different conditions.
In the 1950s, the U.S. Navy referred to the vortex ring state as “power settling” and used the term “settling with power” for the power-available-vs.-power-required situation. Not wanting to let the Navy set the standard, the U.S. Army reversed the terminology in the 1960s. Army pilots in Vietnam used the term “settling with power” to refer to the vortex ring state and “power settling” when they were trying to get out of a tight landing zone with too many troops onboard.
The FAA uses “settling with power” in its discussion of vortex ring state in both the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook and the Practical Test Standards (probably because there are more former Army pilots in the FAA than former Navy pilots).
Outside the U.S., the picture is much clearer; for the most part, the term used is “vortex ring state.”
I say, let’s call it what it is—the “vortex ring state,” not some vague term that has different meanings to different pilots.—Tim Tucker
Unfortunately he then spoils it all by supporting the Vuichard technique.
TC your UK source is simply wrong.
Nope. Not correct.
Mr Tucker provided a nice summary, however to correct his little anecdote, since I was trained by the Navy (and Marines) in the early 80's, by the early 1980's the Navy was teaching the same terms that Mr Tucker attributes to the Army.
Sadly for his speaking somewhat outside of his experience, Mr Tucker has never bothered to read Navy flight training instructions.
For example:
and later in paragraph 4
Source is the current Navy training manual for the TH-57 (a variant of the Bell 206), or current as of 2015.
NAVAL AIR TRAINING COMMAND NAS CORPUS CHRISTI, TEXAS CNATRA P-457 Rev (01-15) Pages 4-30 and 4-31.
The TH-57 NATOPS manual addresses vortex ring state, as does the ground training in basic helicopter aero.
You and quite a few others are simply wrong, due to being about 30 years out of date in what you think is true about what someone else teaches.
I wish to salute crab, and completely agree that in getting people to think about this, regardless of these bun fights over terms, we hope that rotary wing aviatiors will know the difference and know what to do about:
On that we can all surely agree.
The usual American term for this condition is 'power settling', a description that sums up the potential predicament for the unwary pilot.
Mr Tucker provided a nice summary, however to correct his little anecdote, since I was trained by the Navy (and Marines) in the early 80's, by the early 1980's the Navy was teaching the same terms that Mr Tucker attributes to the Army.
Not wanting to let the Navy set the standard, the U.S. Army reversed the terminology in the 1960s. Army pilots in Vietnam used the term “settling with power” to refer to the vortex ring state and “power settling” when they were trying to get out of a tight landing zone with too many troops onboard.
The FAA uses “settling with power” in its discussion of vortex ring state in both the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook and the Practical Test Standards (probably because there are more former Army pilots in the FAA than former Navy pilots).
The FAA uses “settling with power” in its discussion of vortex ring state in both the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook and the Practical Test Standards (probably because there are more former Army pilots in the FAA than former Navy pilots).
For example:
2. Do not let the helicopter hover on the glide slope prior to the intended point of landing, as the risk of entering the vortex ring state will be greatly increased.
a waveoff shall be initiated to avoid the possibility of entering the vortex ring state. See Vortex Ring State, TH-57 NATOPS, Part IV or Chapter 11.
NAVAL AIR TRAINING COMMAND NAS CORPUS CHRISTI, TEXAS CNATRA P-457 Rev (01-15) Pages 4-30 and 4-31.
The TH-57 NATOPS manual addresses vortex ring state, as does the ground training in basic helicopter aero.
You and quite a few others are simply wrong, due to being about 30 years out of date in what you think is true about what someone else teaches.
I wish to salute crab, and completely agree that in getting people to think about this, regardless of these bun fights over terms, we hope that rotary wing aviatiors will know the difference and know what to do about:
- What VRS is, how one may approach or get into VRS in real flying, and how to avoid/prevent/deal with it.
- The problem of "Power Required Exceeds Power Available" and how to avoid that creating problems for you when flying.
On that we can all surely agree.
Avoid imitations
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I agree. There is a similar situation in the fixed wing world, albeit not about the terminology used. The PPL syllabus no longer includes fully developed spinning and recovery, but concentrates on how to avoid spinning in the first place.
That argument has been going on for about thirty years and rumbles on just like this one.
That argument has been going on for about thirty years and rumbles on just like this one.
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All throughout flight school as well as with my twelve flight reviews so far, I have never heard the term "power settling"! The only place I have ever heard that term is on the internet from old military pilots.
As for the condition of "power required exceeding power available", that is brought up during the SFAR 73 discussion of rotor decay, low-rpm rotor stall, low-rpm recovery, and power management, but has no name for itself.
As for the condition of "power required exceeding power available", that is brought up during the SFAR 73 discussion of rotor decay, low-rpm rotor stall, low-rpm recovery, and power management, but has no name for itself.
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To the big dismay of the Canadians and some Brits, this will result in a lot of young pilots trained as half uninformed ones (half wits if you want).
But just for you I will inform Transport Canada that they could be responsible for the stupefying of future generations of pilots by using words (actually, just one) not appropriate to certain persons (actually, just one) and defining certain conditions (VRS, SWP) that do not fit certain individuals.
Rotorbe, just keep flying circuits around the airport and be careful not to hurt yourself.
JD
Last edited by fijdor; 2nd Dec 2017 at 01:02.
Butters
then consider this discussion part of your continued aviation education
All throughout flight school as well as with my twelve flight reviews so far, I have never heard the term "power settling"! The only place I have ever heard that term is on the internet from old military pilots.
As for the condition of "power required exceeding power available", that is brought up during the SFAR 73 discussion of rotor decay, low-rpm rotor stall, low-rpm recovery, and power management, but has no name for itself.
As for the condition of "power required exceeding power available", that is brought up during the SFAR 73 discussion of rotor decay, low-rpm rotor stall, low-rpm recovery, and power management, but has no name for itself.
My dear Fijdor I am so sorry, that I have offended you. I can not deny the fact, that English is not my mother tongue. You should hear me speak, my accent is truly horrible. In all the three languages I have to deal with day in day out, I have an accent. Even in German. My French teachers gave up on me early and then I married a francophone woman. Imagine what she has to endure.
What makes you think I don't like the Canadians or the Brits? I do apologise, if I hurt you, while it was meant as a mere joke. A bad one probably. Sorry about that, but that happens when one is not capable of mastering a single language.
I do not like a word? Sorry to hear that, but I think you got that wrong. SWP or VRS, I don't care, as long as I know what we are all talking about. I like the TOOTOO. That goes perfectly with big eyes and a light panic.
While I do like a nice educational flight around the circuit, I cherish more the time I had in the bush, despite having realised not being on the top of the food chain. It is a revelation that all the racket one does, the common grizzly sees you as tinned food. I am all for the silent helicopter, at least then bears don't react like children to the bell of an ice cream truck.
Lately I have discovered that aerobatics is my thing. My stomach tends to disagree and any selfie would require quite a bit of photoshopping to get the face colours partly human. But my instructor says this will get better with time ... with most pilots ... not always ... I might be a rare exception. Despite that, I do understand that you are well beyond my experience level and I can not apologise enough, if I have offended you with my presence on PPRuNe.
You know, Fijdor, in the future, you might want just to ignore my posts. The time you loose while reading my sorry attempts of explaining my thinking, you will not get back. But allow me to read your posts. I find them most interesting.
Since this will be the last post you read from me, I wish you all the best and a the most satisfying time for the rest of your career.
What makes you think I don't like the Canadians or the Brits? I do apologise, if I hurt you, while it was meant as a mere joke. A bad one probably. Sorry about that, but that happens when one is not capable of mastering a single language.
I do not like a word? Sorry to hear that, but I think you got that wrong. SWP or VRS, I don't care, as long as I know what we are all talking about. I like the TOOTOO. That goes perfectly with big eyes and a light panic.
While I do like a nice educational flight around the circuit, I cherish more the time I had in the bush, despite having realised not being on the top of the food chain. It is a revelation that all the racket one does, the common grizzly sees you as tinned food. I am all for the silent helicopter, at least then bears don't react like children to the bell of an ice cream truck.
Lately I have discovered that aerobatics is my thing. My stomach tends to disagree and any selfie would require quite a bit of photoshopping to get the face colours partly human. But my instructor says this will get better with time ... with most pilots ... not always ... I might be a rare exception. Despite that, I do understand that you are well beyond my experience level and I can not apologise enough, if I have offended you with my presence on PPRuNe.
You know, Fijdor, in the future, you might want just to ignore my posts. The time you loose while reading my sorry attempts of explaining my thinking, you will not get back. But allow me to read your posts. I find them most interesting.
Since this will be the last post you read from me, I wish you all the best and a the most satisfying time for the rest of your career.
