Midair Collision Near Waddesdon
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Disagree
RIP Mike, great guy who i flew with many times over the years.
"TCAS should be made compulsory for all GA" Stupid statement!!! Eyes should be outside the cockpit, we don't need more gadgets pulling us inside more than they are already. Unfortunately just a terrible accident, not the first and won't be the last
"TCAS should be made compulsory for all GA" Stupid statement!!! Eyes should be outside the cockpit, we don't need more gadgets pulling us inside more than they are already. Unfortunately just a terrible accident, not the first and won't be the last
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There have been some very ill-informed statements about the US and FAA, for a start, Class G airspace in US is very rare, transponders are not a universal requirement for VFR.
Without hijacking the thread, more info here for anyone interested in what's happening in the USA in 2020:
https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft...b-out-required
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Belt & Braces
Originally Posted by [email protected]
A little yellow blob on a screen with a relative height readout and an audio warning could easily have saved four lives.
Having been through the military fighter pilot training thing early in life, the whole 'lookout' is good training but ultimately hampered by human limitations.
Having been through the military fighter pilot training thing early in life, the whole 'lookout' is good training but ultimately hampered by human limitations.
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In times gone by when I was "Maverick and Invincible" I would have considered TCAS to be an unnecessary gadget, together with Mode S transponders etc. Having recently been flying a relatively new Enstrom (Not my first choice of type) in Texas which is fitted out with every Garmin toy one could imagine, I have learnt that TCAS DOES work. You don't need to look at it, it gives a verbal warning i.e "traffic one mile 12.00".
It is my strong belief that transponders and TCAS should be a legal requirement on ALL aircraft. That includes hang gliders, gliders, paramotors, microlights, spam cans and helicopters. With the one exception of Paramotors, I have owned and flown all those listed. I do not subscribe to the argument that cost is prohibitive. Frankly, if you can't afford it, take up golf.
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important not to jump to any conclusions re FR24 data which can be erratic as I have witnessed when checking back on my own aircraft.
What I would say looking back on the historical readings is that I have much more confidence in the G-JAMM data than the G-WACG data. G-JAMM's sortie earlier in the day to what likes Silverstone and Wing has painted well and reliably as did the fateful flight taking a similar route although slightly to the east of Silverstone this time. The G-WACG data is much less reliable which is perhaps not surprising considering the relative ages of the two craft involved and the spec of the fitted avionics and there is little low level data on any of G-WACG's recent flights.
What I would say looking back on the historical readings is that I have much more confidence in the G-JAMM data than the G-WACG data. G-JAMM's sortie earlier in the day to what likes Silverstone and Wing has painted well and reliably as did the fateful flight taking a similar route although slightly to the east of Silverstone this time. The G-WACG data is much less reliable which is perhaps not surprising considering the relative ages of the two craft involved and the spec of the fitted avionics and there is little low level data on any of G-WACG's recent flights.
@aa777888
Risk is everywhere but in a regulated environment it also implies risk management.
Risk management implies some degree of control in influencing the outcome.
Having to rely on someone else's ability to see you, in this instance seemingly requiring xray vision, seems futile especially since uncivilized regions like ours have other techniques, as per @hot&hi's post, to help mitigate situations where an eyeball can fail.
Aviate, navigate & COMMUNICATE.
Can't help but think that see and avoid alone should have retired along with the tigermoth.
Risk is everywhere but in a regulated environment it also implies risk management.
Risk management implies some degree of control in influencing the outcome.
Having to rely on someone else's ability to see you, in this instance seemingly requiring xray vision, seems futile especially since uncivilized regions like ours have other techniques, as per @hot&hi's post, to help mitigate situations where an eyeball can fail.
Aviate, navigate & COMMUNICATE.
Can't help but think that see and avoid alone should have retired along with the tigermoth.
Fully agree on possible erratic data,
but on the other hand G-WACG available data on FR24 are in accordance to this statement: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/602...ml#post9961457
Have made this few pages before, just for educational purpose:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t1lesr05ls..._G2_2.jpg?dl=0
So anyone can draw own educated guess (not necessary) even on mentioned "Providence"
but on the other hand G-WACG available data on FR24 are in accordance to this statement: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/602...ml#post9961457
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t1lesr05ls..._G2_2.jpg?dl=0
So anyone can draw own educated guess (not necessary) even on mentioned "Providence"
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@aa777888
Risk is everywhere but in a regulated environment it also implies risk management.
Risk management implies some degree of control in influencing the outcome.
Having to rely on someone else's ability to see you, in this instance seemingly requiring xray vision, seems futile especially since uncivilized regions like ours have other techniques, as per @hot&hi's post, to help mitigate situations where an eyeball can fail.
Aviate, navigate & COMMUNICATE.
Can't help but think that see and avoid alone should have retired along with the tigermoth.
Risk is everywhere but in a regulated environment it also implies risk management.
Risk management implies some degree of control in influencing the outcome.
Having to rely on someone else's ability to see you, in this instance seemingly requiring xray vision, seems futile especially since uncivilized regions like ours have other techniques, as per @hot&hi's post, to help mitigate situations where an eyeball can fail.
Aviate, navigate & COMMUNICATE.
Can't help but think that see and avoid alone should have retired along with the tigermoth.
when they get it to be that good (AeroGlass is shipping, but it's nowhere near like what you see in that Hollywood production of a Youtube video).
However, I don't agree with requiring people to spend more than the rest of their aircraft is worth, sometimes much more, on avionics mandates.
A tablet and a crappity ass USB radio dongle can do better than the vast majority of the GA avionics already installed for achieving situational awareness. If you can make meeting the mandate that inexpensive, then I'd be all for it.
Anyhow, you can have all the technology in the world, and until we take the pilot out of the loop aircraft will still hit each other in mid-air.
Thing is, my life is priceless to me 
. Certainly worth more than a few thousand for TCAS (or FLARM, ADS-B in etc).
. Certainly worth more than a few thousand for TCAS (or FLARM, ADS-B in etc).
No argument from me when you are spending your own money, but when there is a huge push to spend somebody else's money on somebody else's aeroplane ---- and make it mandatory, that's when proper analysis and process should kick in --- but often doesn't.
Far more than motoring "safety", aviation "safety" attracts lurid headlines, and all sorts of self-appointed experts ( eX is the unknown quantity, "spurt" is a drip under pressure) demanding "they do something", and all too often, politicians respond.
This is a huge problem in Australia, where GA has been saddled with a "WORLD'S BEST/First" (we just love being self proclaimed world first/best** something ) ADS-B mandate, far broader than the FAA or Eurocontrol ADS-B mandate --- the millions spent ( or, aircraft grounded because owners can't afford it) will not reduce risk on iota, because the traffic levels are so low, in most of the areas GA operates, that the assessed risk is not only below the ICAO Separation Assurance Standard, but is assessed as "vanishingly small", the statistical equivalent of zero, nil,zilch, naught, but it doesn't silence the "but what if ---" brigade, who are quite happy to spend every last dollar of somebody else's money.
** Delete as applicable
Tootle pip!!
Emergency avoiding action is not in the syllabus for PPL/CPL (although 45 degree bank turns are). Maybe it should be?
LOOKOUT is invariably taught during S&L in a lateral environment from wingtip to wingtip, possibly because relative speed is perceived as the major contributer to the threat. Lokout below in a descent, is seldom taught correctly; lowering the nose is of little use, but if you weave the aircraft it gives you the opportunity to look down into the area where you are descending. It is much more diffiucult to see an aircraft silouetted against terrain, especially if it is small and has a low cross sectional profile and the relative speed is low.
Last edited by Whopity; 20th Nov 2017 at 07:40.
I taught up to 60° although I do recall that it is now only required to 45° in UK land. I however did teach it as primarily an evasive manoeuvre as it felt like a more likely use and one I had to use a few times myself. I agree though it should be firmly in the syllabus as an avoiding manoeuvre.
Perhaps , too, instructors could at least demonstrate the emergency break, an application of max rate turning, which might, just might, one day prove useful., regularly practised in the RAF, and used in anger by myself, and no doubt others, a few times, and just once in civil life when a 727 on another FIR frequency, at FL 330 was cleared through my level, 350 , to 370 That was before TCAS but lookout saved the day.
I doubt it's even mentioned in the ppl syllabus.
Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 20th Nov 2017 at 09:00.
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weather a factor in midair
As a retired gliding instructor, tug pilot, & IR, etc, the midair over Waddesdon
was unfortunately the coming together of a number of factors.
Sun very low in winter months. Almost impossible to spot other aircraft against the sun.
VFR weather rare in winter months. So when the fog lifts at last, or it finally stops raining, those training flights which have been waiting for a good day finally could be possible.
In uncontrolled airspace, local landmarks like stately homes become worth a view from the air.
As someone who learned to fly at Booker (gliders and fixed wing only)
helicopters were always a pain; one could not predict how they would behave...would they go up, down, backwards, whatever.
And as someone who has been trying to run the airfield at Shenington, helicopters have behaved VERY BADLY in that area. Like taking off from a village back garden, directly into the path of a K8 glider on approach. We would respect a heli that with prior permission did a proper lookout and approach AND DEPARTURE at the airfield, not somebody's back yard.
Just because he called on the radio and nobody answered, did not imply that no flying was taking place at the airfield.
Instructors in all types of aviation should persuade students to fly in weather when the instrument rating is used, that is valuable experience....and not only when it is VFR. Teach your students a bit of night flying, have a go with in IMC in the winter.
The first thing a glider student is taught is that lookout could save your life. Because gliders fly near each other in thermals, most gliders have excellent vis from the cockpit. Most power aircraft have restricted vis.
If there are more gadgets inside the cockpit, lookout will not necessarily get the attention it requires.
was unfortunately the coming together of a number of factors.
Sun very low in winter months. Almost impossible to spot other aircraft against the sun.
VFR weather rare in winter months. So when the fog lifts at last, or it finally stops raining, those training flights which have been waiting for a good day finally could be possible.
In uncontrolled airspace, local landmarks like stately homes become worth a view from the air.
As someone who learned to fly at Booker (gliders and fixed wing only)
helicopters were always a pain; one could not predict how they would behave...would they go up, down, backwards, whatever.
And as someone who has been trying to run the airfield at Shenington, helicopters have behaved VERY BADLY in that area. Like taking off from a village back garden, directly into the path of a K8 glider on approach. We would respect a heli that with prior permission did a proper lookout and approach AND DEPARTURE at the airfield, not somebody's back yard.
Just because he called on the radio and nobody answered, did not imply that no flying was taking place at the airfield.
Instructors in all types of aviation should persuade students to fly in weather when the instrument rating is used, that is valuable experience....and not only when it is VFR. Teach your students a bit of night flying, have a go with in IMC in the winter.
The first thing a glider student is taught is that lookout could save your life. Because gliders fly near each other in thermals, most gliders have excellent vis from the cockpit. Most power aircraft have restricted vis.
If there are more gadgets inside the cockpit, lookout will not necessarily get the attention it requires.
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I have to agree with Whopity & Fireflybob, I was on an instructor seminar and tasked along with a number of young instructors to do a steep turn briefing, almost all of then saw steep turns as an aerobatic manoeuvre requiring a HASEL check before starting it and the use of a steep turn as an evasive manoeuvre simply had not dawned on them.
Prevention is better than cure so a sharp lookout ( backed up by FLARMor TIS if you have it ) should be the primary defence aganst collision but the ability to enter a steep turn instantly has to be part of the PPL course.
This is viewed from a fixed wing perspective and I am sure the helicopter instructors will have their own take on this subject that best uses the aerodynamic strengths of the helicopter.
Prevention is better than cure so a sharp lookout ( backed up by FLARMor TIS if you have it ) should be the primary defence aganst collision but the ability to enter a steep turn instantly has to be part of the PPL course.
This is viewed from a fixed wing perspective and I am sure the helicopter instructors will have their own take on this subject that best uses the aerodynamic strengths of the helicopter.
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Fireflybod states "Emergency avoiding action is not in the syllabus for PPL/CPL (although 45 degree bank turns are). Maybe it should be?".
I have always taught 45 degree banked turns followed by 60 degree banked turns. During the briefing I make it clear that this exercise is to build on the students coordination and accuracy. However I also brief at the same time avoiding turns and spiral dive recovery.
On completion of turn steep turns exersise, I teach avoiding turns and the spiral dive recovery. I think it is essential that the student can fly a 60 degree turn on full power through 90 degree heading change in the correct direction. The reason is that I feel collision avoidance should be instinctive. For that reason I cover it on renewals.
The lookout and clock code should be breifed and taught in the very early stage, not least because the student is your second pair of eyes. the other skill is how to teach your student how to remove dead bugs from the windscreen.
HP & L covers collision avoidance, I do not have a problem with 'constant angle' taught in theory, but I think collision avoidance should on the whole be taught as a practical skill. There was, I think a CAA safety sense leaflet on collision avoidance at one time, and likewise in the earlt days of CRM it was on the CAA syllabus,. I never understood why, as you would think that a CPL or ATPL would have covered that in training.
I have always taught 45 degree banked turns followed by 60 degree banked turns. During the briefing I make it clear that this exercise is to build on the students coordination and accuracy. However I also brief at the same time avoiding turns and spiral dive recovery.
On completion of turn steep turns exersise, I teach avoiding turns and the spiral dive recovery. I think it is essential that the student can fly a 60 degree turn on full power through 90 degree heading change in the correct direction. The reason is that I feel collision avoidance should be instinctive. For that reason I cover it on renewals.
The lookout and clock code should be breifed and taught in the very early stage, not least because the student is your second pair of eyes. the other skill is how to teach your student how to remove dead bugs from the windscreen.
HP & L covers collision avoidance, I do not have a problem with 'constant angle' taught in theory, but I think collision avoidance should on the whole be taught as a practical skill. There was, I think a CAA safety sense leaflet on collision avoidance at one time, and likewise in the earlt days of CRM it was on the CAA syllabus,. I never understood why, as you would think that a CPL or ATPL would have covered that in training.
