Midair Collision Near Waddesdon
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Thing is, my life is priceless to me
. Certainly worth more than a few thousand for TCAS (or FLARM, ADS-B in etc). And there's a fair chance it did save my life (previous post). So on my cost-benefit analysis it makes sense.If I was in a C172 about to do, for example, "unusual attitude" training, with an almost invisible helicopter hovering below me, it would be good to have an electronic Mk2 eyeball to help the human and imperfect Mk1 pair.
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I don't normally enter public discussions on web sites such as this however I am driven to do so on this occasion by a tidal wave of emotion as a result of Mike's demise.
I am blessed to have been taught during my 3500 hours rotary time by Mike, DRK, Mike Buckland and Ian Shoebridge. In my view; collectively the most talented and professional group of rotary pilots in the UK. Two of those four now are now innocent victims of someone else's mistake it would seem.
In times gone by when I was "Maverick and Invincible" I would have considered TCAS to be an unnecessary gadget, together with Mode S transponders etc. Having recently been flying a relatively new Enstrom (Not my first choice of type) in Texas which is fitted out with every Garmin toy one could imagine, I have learnt that TCAS DOES work. You don't need to look at it, it gives a verbal warning i.e "traffic one mile 12.00".
It is my strong belief that transponders and TCAS should be a legal requirement on ALL aircraft. That includes hang gliders, gliders, paramotors, microlights, spam cans and helicopters. With the one exception of Paramotors, I have owned and flown all those listed. I do not subscribe to the argument that cost is prohibitive. Frankly, if you can't afford it, take up golf.
There have been two occasions over the last 15 years where I was nearly involved in a midair; one in the Manchester low level route flying South late in the day in bright low sunshine when opposing FW traffic skimmed over the top of me with inches to spare and another occasion when I was lifting out of a pub in the Pewsey Vale when a Tiger Moth crossed 100' AGL right to left in front of me whilst performing a beat up. On that occasion I wasn't really bothering to look out in the manner that I have become accustomed to these days because I just assumed that at that height, I was unlikely to meet any conflicting traffic. I survived both of these incidents by pure good fortune. TCAS as fitted to Previously mentioned Enstrom I believe would have prevented both heart stopping moments.
Its impossible to legislate against every accident however in the ever increasing busyness of the skies, especially in South of England, why not use the equipment thats already out there to help keep us alive? It no replacement for the MK1 eyeball, just a compliment to it which in yesterdays accident (Which occurred only two miles from my home) may just have saved Mikes life.
I wish I had taken the opportunity to thank Mike for all he taught me before his demise.
I am blessed to have been taught during my 3500 hours rotary time by Mike, DRK, Mike Buckland and Ian Shoebridge. In my view; collectively the most talented and professional group of rotary pilots in the UK. Two of those four now are now innocent victims of someone else's mistake it would seem.
In times gone by when I was "Maverick and Invincible" I would have considered TCAS to be an unnecessary gadget, together with Mode S transponders etc. Having recently been flying a relatively new Enstrom (Not my first choice of type) in Texas which is fitted out with every Garmin toy one could imagine, I have learnt that TCAS DOES work. You don't need to look at it, it gives a verbal warning i.e "traffic one mile 12.00".
It is my strong belief that transponders and TCAS should be a legal requirement on ALL aircraft. That includes hang gliders, gliders, paramotors, microlights, spam cans and helicopters. With the one exception of Paramotors, I have owned and flown all those listed. I do not subscribe to the argument that cost is prohibitive. Frankly, if you can't afford it, take up golf.
There have been two occasions over the last 15 years where I was nearly involved in a midair; one in the Manchester low level route flying South late in the day in bright low sunshine when opposing FW traffic skimmed over the top of me with inches to spare and another occasion when I was lifting out of a pub in the Pewsey Vale when a Tiger Moth crossed 100' AGL right to left in front of me whilst performing a beat up. On that occasion I wasn't really bothering to look out in the manner that I have become accustomed to these days because I just assumed that at that height, I was unlikely to meet any conflicting traffic. I survived both of these incidents by pure good fortune. TCAS as fitted to Previously mentioned Enstrom I believe would have prevented both heart stopping moments.
Its impossible to legislate against every accident however in the ever increasing busyness of the skies, especially in South of England, why not use the equipment thats already out there to help keep us alive? It no replacement for the MK1 eyeball, just a compliment to it which in yesterdays accident (Which occurred only two miles from my home) may just have saved Mikes life.
I wish I had taken the opportunity to thank Mike for all he taught me before his demise.
SkyEcho
I believe with a SkyEcho (ADS-B IN/OUT) device £600 a tablet and SkyDemon you have a TCS device for as little as £1000 with all the benefits of skydemon. Then as long as everyone runs mode S we would all see each other and reduce these sad events happening. This is UK CAA Approved only. Even gliders could run this, has an internal batteries that runs for 6 hour. SkyEcho ? uAvionix
It would appear from the tracks they where both on the same track and the 152 descended onto the helicopter so in each others blind spot very sad day.
It would appear from the tracks they where both on the same track and the 152 descended onto the helicopter so in each others blind spot very sad day.
...
2. The aircraft tracks crossed somewhere between 11:58:28 and 11:59:01 according to the FR24 data. At this time FR24 reports the aircraft was not "diving" and was infact holding an altitude of 3500-3700 feet. The helicopter was consistently between 1,025 and 1,050 feet. Any thoughts on this? Based on the FR24 data they had ~2,500 feet of vertical seperation.
3. Last received data from the helicopter was at 12:00:46 (1000 feet consistent speed and heading with previous data). Last received data from the aircraft was at 11:59:44 (2700 feet (a loss of 700 feet in 24 seconds), with speed and direction remaining consistent with previous data. Generally speaking data from the heli was received every ~10 seconds. Data from the plane was received slightly less often but not by a large amount. Why was data received from the helicopter for another minute than the plane? I can only think of one reason - and if that was the case it msot likely wouldn't be reporting a steady alititude of ~1,000 feet.
...
2. The aircraft tracks crossed somewhere between 11:58:28 and 11:59:01 according to the FR24 data. At this time FR24 reports the aircraft was not "diving" and was infact holding an altitude of 3500-3700 feet. The helicopter was consistently between 1,025 and 1,050 feet. Any thoughts on this? Based on the FR24 data they had ~2,500 feet of vertical seperation.
3. Last received data from the helicopter was at 12:00:46 (1000 feet consistent speed and heading with previous data). Last received data from the aircraft was at 11:59:44 (2700 feet (a loss of 700 feet in 24 seconds), with speed and direction remaining consistent with previous data. Generally speaking data from the heli was received every ~10 seconds. Data from the plane was received slightly less often but not by a large amount. Why was data received from the helicopter for another minute than the plane? I can only think of one reason - and if that was the case it msot likely wouldn't be reporting a steady alititude of ~1,000 feet.
...
Radio Calls
I understand the accident didn't happen in the circuit. Can those familiar with the area advise whether the accident happened in uncontrolled airspace (where pilots are supposed to broadcast their position and intentions in regular intervals, while keeping a listening watch at all times on the FRQ allocated to that area)?
Or was it in an area (controlled, or advisory airspace) where a/c communicate with a controller? Here, a listening watch should equally alert pilots of a potential conflict. The controller may put in further efforts to help with separation and/or to alert a/c of nearby traffic (while I understand that for VFR flights the responsibility to maintain separation remains with the pilots)?
Last question: In the case of this accident flight, would there be recordings of the radio calls made by either aircraft, from the transmission before the accident back to prior take-off? I understand that neither a/c had a CVR, but maybe there are recordings made by ATC?
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In my experience, even in the busiest of urban weekend flyer traffic, pilots are very responsive to radio calls that indicate the intention to go to the same area ("... for a sightseeing flight over the XYZ dam") or of ending up on conflicting tracks. Pilots would immediately agree to deconflict, either by increasing vertical separation, and/or by agreeing to stay on opposite sides of certain landmarks, and/or by confirming of "having you visual".
(Whereby in case of the other a/c coming towards you with, say, 500 ft vertical separation, I would never see the other a/c more than 5 seconds before it passes me. I guess that time would be even lower, if (i) the vertical separation was lower and (ii) I wasn't actively looking for the target - my 2c worth of contribution to the Mk1 discussion.)
Or was it in an area (controlled, or advisory airspace) where a/c communicate with a controller? Here, a listening watch should equally alert pilots of a potential conflict. The controller may put in further efforts to help with separation and/or to alert a/c of nearby traffic (while I understand that for VFR flights the responsibility to maintain separation remains with the pilots)?
Last question: In the case of this accident flight, would there be recordings of the radio calls made by either aircraft, from the transmission before the accident back to prior take-off? I understand that neither a/c had a CVR, but maybe there are recordings made by ATC?
--
In my experience, even in the busiest of urban weekend flyer traffic, pilots are very responsive to radio calls that indicate the intention to go to the same area ("... for a sightseeing flight over the XYZ dam") or of ending up on conflicting tracks. Pilots would immediately agree to deconflict, either by increasing vertical separation, and/or by agreeing to stay on opposite sides of certain landmarks, and/or by confirming of "having you visual".
(Whereby in case of the other a/c coming towards you with, say, 500 ft vertical separation, I would never see the other a/c more than 5 seconds before it passes me. I guess that time would be even lower, if (i) the vertical separation was lower and (ii) I wasn't actively looking for the target - my 2c worth of contribution to the Mk1 discussion.)
Avoid imitations
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Hot&Hi,
It occurred in Class G airspace. That airspace doesn't work in the way you stated. There is no frequency allocated. The principle in UK is "See and avoid".
It occurred in Class G airspace. That airspace doesn't work in the way you stated. There is no frequency allocated. The principle in UK is "See and avoid".
Would a special rules area approach be a safer option?
Purely using see and avoid seems more like rolling the dice than a holistic approach to safety.
Radio Calls the obvious solution?
.For the record, I am still going to install a FLARM or Monroy type of personal collision avoidance system (that picks up ADS-B, TPX S, and TPX C traffic) in my aircraft, as radio calls do not 100% guarantee separation in the pattern of small, unmanned GA airports, and - as others have reported - there is the odd pilot who is flying without sending regular position reports.
I think the more it is an audio warning of only the closest, immediate threats, and the less it requires to constantly check minute symbols on a tablet computer down on your knee, the better.
Avoid imitations
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UK airspace is complicated and congested. One radio frequency could not really cater for everything. We do have "safetycom" which is a single frequency allocated for use at low level but intended to announce arrival/departure at small landing strips where there is no other dedicated frequency.
I wouldn't want to fly with traffic warnings on my lap!
I wouldn't want to fly with traffic warnings on my lap!
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I get the feeling that some on this forum are using the term “TCAS” for any traffic awareness system.
I would be surprised to see TCAS fitted to anything smaller than a turboprop or a top end turbine helicopter.
There are some very good traffic systems on the market, the smaller ones can be fitted in the smallest of Aircraft.
My one request to people contributing to this forum is to properly refer to the system you are talking about and no use TCAS as a generic term for any traffic system
I would be surprised to see TCAS fitted to anything smaller than a turboprop or a top end turbine helicopter.
There are some very good traffic systems on the market, the smaller ones can be fitted in the smallest of Aircraft.
My one request to people contributing to this forum is to properly refer to the system you are talking about and no use TCAS as a generic term for any traffic system
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Thats what I love about our industry, so many fecking idiots with hindsight, RIP Mike condolences to family and everyone else affected by the loss of a true Gentleman in aviation.
Well said Tim. A few of us were discussing a particular accident one day and Mike said "Some people just refuse to believe that accidents sometimes happen - no matter what we do to mitigate them" RIP my friend.
A tragic accident and a great loss to the industry. If it wasn't for Mike Green, i'd probably never have become an instructor and made my career change. I did my FIC course pre-entry check with him back in 1999. RIP Capt. green and my condolences to all affected.
For those who haven't got the FR24 access, i've taken a couple of screenshots of the flight parameters and posted the links here.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zj5nuczgyy...-JAMM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e8tkrl13l0...-WACG.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t18wwttyro...yback.jpg?dl=0
For those who haven't got the FR24 access, i've taken a couple of screenshots of the flight parameters and posted the links here.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zj5nuczgyy...-JAMM.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e8tkrl13l0...-WACG.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t18wwttyro...yback.jpg?dl=0
Last edited by helimutt; 19th Nov 2017 at 12:14.
There are some interesting comments re the meaning of 'accident' in the second Hunter crash thread.
Anyway, a reminder to S-turn when descending (which the gentleman may have been doing but still not seen the helicopter against a difficult background)
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Wealthysoup: Are you suggesting that the fix wing aircraft suddenly entered into an extreme dive, consistent with (for example) pilot incapacitation and/or loss of control plus total loss of electric power, consuming all of the 2,500' of carefully maintained vertical separation?
No-one is taking the FR24 data as 'gospel' but it does look fairly stable and give an outline indication of possible reasons. For instance the altitudes are relatively stable on both aircraft, the fixed wing appearing to take a reasonably rapid descent within the last 20-30secs. This we know because it was initially at 3000+ft and the helicopter always had been around the 1000'ft.
Best to wait and see what the accident report says and if the FR24 data is all wrong, then it's all wrong, and it shouldn't be used to 'second guess' reasons for such a tragic accident.
Best to wait and see what the accident report says and if the FR24 data is all wrong, then it's all wrong, and it shouldn't be used to 'second guess' reasons for such a tragic accident.
Avoid imitations
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FR24 has shown my aircraft travelling anywhere between 0 and 300 kts in a steady cruise.
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