Midair Collision Near Waddesdon
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Sincerest condolences to all involved. I cannot imagine what HS must be going through right now.
I have known the HS team since the mid-90's though haven't been in touch for a few months and no longer work in the industry.
A very sad day for aviation.
h14
I have known the HS team since the mid-90's though haven't been in touch for a few months and no longer work in the industry.
A very sad day for aviation.
h14
Last edited by heli14; 18th Nov 2017 at 10:20. Reason: PM received, thanks
One thing that has occurred to me recently is that modern avionics seem to (potentially) require more head in the cockpit (unless managed and taught appropriately).
In the olden days when we only had 180 channels on VHF (100 kHz spacing) one could change from say 119.5 to 126.1 in a couple of seconds. Now especially with the smaller electronic displays it takes longer and more fiddling to change from say 126.225 to 134.175. I teach to change the whole MHz first and then have a lookout before setting the decimals. Same applies when changing ILS/VOR frequencies where with sets like the GNS430 I now have to find and press a changeover button before changing frequency. One of the latest mode S transponders require one to alter and then enter each digit separately and sometimes the transponders are sited on the other side of the cockpit. At one level this might sound trivial but it isn't in the sense that it encourages pilots to be more head in the cockpit. Add in the mix of other devices which many pilots use now and we have even more ingredients for not looking out adequately.
In fact you're much more likely to have a close encounter or a mid air in the circuit area than the open FIR notwithstanding choke points. Historically there have even been collisions worldwide within controlled airspace and I believe in the USA some time ago the statistics showed highest risk of midair was in airspace with mixed VFR/IFR traffic close to an airport which is equipped with radar.
Whilst I'm not a luddite I don't think this risk will be entirely solved by requiring all aircraft to have transponders with TCAS and/or be in receipt of an ATC service.
In the olden days when we only had 180 channels on VHF (100 kHz spacing) one could change from say 119.5 to 126.1 in a couple of seconds. Now especially with the smaller electronic displays it takes longer and more fiddling to change from say 126.225 to 134.175. I teach to change the whole MHz first and then have a lookout before setting the decimals. Same applies when changing ILS/VOR frequencies where with sets like the GNS430 I now have to find and press a changeover button before changing frequency. One of the latest mode S transponders require one to alter and then enter each digit separately and sometimes the transponders are sited on the other side of the cockpit. At one level this might sound trivial but it isn't in the sense that it encourages pilots to be more head in the cockpit. Add in the mix of other devices which many pilots use now and we have even more ingredients for not looking out adequately.
In fact you're much more likely to have a close encounter or a mid air in the circuit area than the open FIR notwithstanding choke points. Historically there have even been collisions worldwide within controlled airspace and I believe in the USA some time ago the statistics showed highest risk of midair was in airspace with mixed VFR/IFR traffic close to an airport which is equipped with radar.
Whilst I'm not a luddite I don't think this risk will be entirely solved by requiring all aircraft to have transponders with TCAS and/or be in receipt of an ATC service.
Some years of flying in a military training environment, as a QFI and student, with lots of JPs flying in the high density training area really hammered home to me the value of a diligent and continuous lookout.
Still, a very sad, tragic, accident.
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EESDL
As a long term ( former ) resident of WAP and a former employee of AAA Ltd I too am shocked and saddened by the news that people who I have worked alongside have perished.
As of this moment I don’t know exactly who has died and being out of the UK dont want to further distress those at HS & AAA by making enquiries on the phone.
As of yet I don’t know who to direct my condolences to , I am sure this will become apparent in the fullness of time, meanwhile I am happy to discuss the technical issues surrounding traffic detection equipment but not anything to do with this tragic accident.
As of this moment I don’t know exactly who has died and being out of the UK dont want to further distress those at HS & AAA by making enquiries on the phone.
As of yet I don’t know who to direct my condolences to , I am sure this will become apparent in the fullness of time, meanwhile I am happy to discuss the technical issues surrounding traffic detection equipment but not anything to do with this tragic accident.
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As quoted if true............but rotor while flying on 1000 ft in steady course
had no chance to see above&behind and plank last data was:
2,700 ft Vertical Speed -1,536 fpm.
A descent of 1536 fpm seems very high for a C152, and comenced below a height where you would not generally enter a spin or spiral dive. Despite which you would make clearing turns first.
A glide, approach, or normal decent would be more likely to be 500, 600 fpm in a C152, sideslip slightly higher.
had no chance to see above&behind and plank last data was:
2,700 ft Vertical Speed -1,536 fpm.
A descent of 1536 fpm seems very high for a C152, and comenced below a height where you would not generally enter a spin or spiral dive. Despite which you would make clearing turns first.
A glide, approach, or normal decent would be more likely to be 500, 600 fpm in a C152, sideslip slightly higher.
...now that electronics are so light and cheap, a TCAS or FLARM system could, at least, significantly reduce the risk.
Yes, lookout is vital but no-one can see around their aircraft 100% of the time in all directions. I use TCAS at work but it doesn’t really fit with typical GA flight profiles.
I have FLARM, which will alert me to traffic that it perceives as a threat, getting more insistent as the time to collision reduces. It doesn’t tell me what to do but where I should look. If I can’t see whatever is causing the warning, I know I need to change height and/or heading to deconflict.
A properly installed and set up EC system should have much less in the way of blindspots than humans have when seated in light aircraft. It is a complement to lookout, not a replacement but in today’s crowded skies and in areas where traffic is funnelled under and/or between airspace restriction, I think it is indispensable.
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Sadly I watched this accident on radar . . . . both Mode S equipped squawking A and C. Any form of ACAS would have helped. Condolences to all those touched by this tragic but avoidable event.
Having spent half a decade watching the maggots within 15nm of WCO on a good flying day I can tell you that's the last place I would be on a good weather day !!
BUT. . . what staggers me is the amount of mode S equipped aircraft that operated without Mode C (We can tell) either off due lack of equipment knowledge, deliberately switched off (there was was a 14 page thread on flyer about that) or unserviceable.
On one side there are those who demand the right to fly no radio no electronics etc and the other, those whom fly commercially whom want as many layers of ALARP safety as possible. I actually don't think it's the CAA or any ANSP responsibility; it's yours! Get your BGA, BHA, GA alliance et all together to see if they can establish a minimum operating standard to aid airborne conspicuity.
This is the 2nd time this year I've sent radar recordings to the AAIB - 2 times too many.
Stay safe all - Fred
Having spent half a decade watching the maggots within 15nm of WCO on a good flying day I can tell you that's the last place I would be on a good weather day !!
BUT. . . what staggers me is the amount of mode S equipped aircraft that operated without Mode C (We can tell) either off due lack of equipment knowledge, deliberately switched off (there was was a 14 page thread on flyer about that) or unserviceable.
On one side there are those who demand the right to fly no radio no electronics etc and the other, those whom fly commercially whom want as many layers of ALARP safety as possible. I actually don't think it's the CAA or any ANSP responsibility; it's yours! Get your BGA, BHA, GA alliance et all together to see if they can establish a minimum operating standard to aid airborne conspicuity.
This is the 2nd time this year I've sent radar recordings to the AAIB - 2 times too many.
Stay safe all - Fred
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ADS-B can help reduce airspace infringements and mid-air collisions, says CAA
https://www.caa.co.uk/News/ADS-B-can...ons,-says-CAA/
ADS-B can help reduce airspace infringements and mid-air collisions, says CAA ? Future Airspace Strategy VFR Implementation Group
https://www.caa.co.uk/News/ADS-B-can...ons,-says-CAA/
ADS-B can help reduce airspace infringements and mid-air collisions, says CAA ? Future Airspace Strategy VFR Implementation Group
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I just wanted to add my condolences. I was once part of a small group that collected the wreckage of a glider that had been in a mid-air. It was a sobering experience.
I also wanted to make an observation from the point of view of someone who has a background in psychology, though not in cognitive psychology, which is the relevant field here. Anyone who puts their trust in the human cognitive system should look at the articles on Wikipedia that discuss *change blindness* and *inattentional blindness* (can't post the links). And they could do worse than look at some videos by Dan Simons and Chris Chabris, which are easy to find on YouTube (once again, sorry I can't post the links).
It is important to recognise that, even if something is right in the middle of your field of view, your cognitive system may not pass that information to your consciousness. I am not taking sides in the debate about TCAS or anything else, just saying that every system has limitations, but I suspect that not everyone is aware of the extraordinary limitations of human equipment. Perhaps a short course showing those limitations ought to be part of pilot training, if it isn't already. The same goes for driving.
I also wanted to make an observation from the point of view of someone who has a background in psychology, though not in cognitive psychology, which is the relevant field here. Anyone who puts their trust in the human cognitive system should look at the articles on Wikipedia that discuss *change blindness* and *inattentional blindness* (can't post the links). And they could do worse than look at some videos by Dan Simons and Chris Chabris, which are easy to find on YouTube (once again, sorry I can't post the links).
It is important to recognise that, even if something is right in the middle of your field of view, your cognitive system may not pass that information to your consciousness. I am not taking sides in the debate about TCAS or anything else, just saying that every system has limitations, but I suspect that not everyone is aware of the extraordinary limitations of human equipment. Perhaps a short course showing those limitations ought to be part of pilot training, if it isn't already. The same goes for driving.
Indeed, it is called multilateration - unfortunately a term that a lot of people aren't familiar with.
Where does the accuracy of 50m for x,y,z come from? I've never heard of a specific accuracy for FR24 but would be interested to know if its implentation of MLAT really is that accurate.
I'm afraid that the "radar site" getting time and position from a GPS attached to the receiver is outdated by several years. Whilst a GPS can be used, flightradar allows users to enter X,Y and Z of their receiver (or more specifically their antenna) without ever having to connect to a GPS. If the GPS was (still) a requirement then the data would likely be a fair bit more reliable.
Edit: Just googled - Here is the official accuracy statement for MLAT from the flightradar blog: "MLAT position calculations have a general accuracy of 10-100 meters and 1000 meters in the worst cases."
Where does the accuracy of 50m for x,y,z come from? I've never heard of a specific accuracy for FR24 but would be interested to know if its implentation of MLAT really is that accurate.
I'm afraid that the "radar site" getting time and position from a GPS attached to the receiver is outdated by several years. Whilst a GPS can be used, flightradar allows users to enter X,Y and Z of their receiver (or more specifically their antenna) without ever having to connect to a GPS. If the GPS was (still) a requirement then the data would likely be a fair bit more reliable.
Edit: Just googled - Here is the official accuracy statement for MLAT from the flightradar blog: "MLAT position calculations have a general accuracy of 10-100 meters and 1000 meters in the worst cases."
which is not certified,
have no intention to be navigational aid,
just for informational use,
etc....
On the other hand that area is have fair coverage with F- kind of FR24 hardware where GPS is ON 7/24/365 and position can not be "written by
hand" and time domain timing is not estimated through network but sourced from GPS timing.
Which is slight difference to T- kind of devices mostly self home-made out of good SDRdongle, RPI2or3, fair 1 GHz range antenna, good net, with or without GPS present.
Here, have both and experience of more than 4 years of 24/7/365 monitoring is that accuracy of MLAT on S type of transponders is within
20 m range. There are also several other pilot implementations of similar time domain MLAT technology for example in SAR use. Have some
experience on that too.
Let's see official report but expect no surprise, the plank was above
and behind on 7 to 8 diving on poor souls in G2
Edit / this post just confirm that the data for FR24 was enough to have fair estimation of position:
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Leon & Ruth. The reputation and quality of the training HS provides is second to none. Like many, I've been welcomed into your family and learnt so much, way more than mere EASA regulations, from excellent aviators and instructors. Yesterday's tragedy may seem catastrophic right now but I know you will find a way through.
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It is a very sad day at HS
We have lost a great Instructor and friend through no fault of his own
He was inspirational for so many students and will be greatly missed by us all
Now is not the time for recriminations but to remember a great guy and also his student who was also an innocent victim
May they both RIP
Leon
We have lost a great Instructor and friend through no fault of his own
He was inspirational for so many students and will be greatly missed by us all
Now is not the time for recriminations but to remember a great guy and also his student who was also an innocent victim
May they both RIP
Leon
Sadly I watched this accident on radar . . . . both Mode S equipped squawking A and C.
That has to change.
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Yes.
I used to fly in the USA and if I remember correctly you could easily get a 'flight following' service giving deconfliction (can any US pilots confirm?) Was amazed to find that in the much more cramped UK airspace, LARS is seen as a luxury.
It's like the English feel awfully embarrassed to have to bother those busy chaps at Farnborough.
I used to fly in the USA and if I remember correctly you could easily get a 'flight following' service giving deconfliction (can any US pilots confirm?) Was amazed to find that in the much more cramped UK airspace, LARS is seen as a luxury.
It's like the English feel awfully embarrassed to have to bother those busy chaps at Farnborough.
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And good lookout saved me a collision with someone merrily joining base the other day without a single radio call (different airfield).
You're right, good lookout is paramount. Also that TCAS has flaws and isn't ideal for GA in dense traffic. But for me it was a lifesaver.
TCAS saved me a head on collision flying back from Milton Keynes to Wycombe in the evening sun.
And good lookout saved me a collision with someone merrily joining base the other day without a single radio call (different airfield).
You're right, good lookout is paramount. Also that TCAS has flaws and isn't ideal for GA in dense traffic. But for me it was a lifesaver.
And good lookout saved me a collision with someone merrily joining base the other day without a single radio call (different airfield).
You're right, good lookout is paramount. Also that TCAS has flaws and isn't ideal for GA in dense traffic. But for me it was a lifesaver.
.
This is no longer the 1930's where we waft along at glacial speed, in largely empty airspace waving casually as someone flies past.
Modern solutions are needed to deal with congested airspace and the wide variety of machinery trying to use it.
The eyeball is important, but solely relying on it is a flawed for the reasons stated in previous posts.
Accurate flying and concise communication about intentions will also help others take avoiding action before a conflict occurs, especially in uncontrolled airspace.
The place to start is using the tech that is available, it helps no one if it is turned off or unserviceable. Getting back to basics and being disciplined in uncontrolled airspace may also help.
On the TCAS front, Garmin's GTS800 is TCAS v1 and in it's cheapest form provides about 12nm of advanced warning. Equipment costs were about $10k excluding labour and paperwork. If you spend more you get better range but for most light machines that is probably sufficient.
Modern solutions are needed to deal with congested airspace and the wide variety of machinery trying to use it.
The eyeball is important, but solely relying on it is a flawed for the reasons stated in previous posts.
Accurate flying and concise communication about intentions will also help others take avoiding action before a conflict occurs, especially in uncontrolled airspace.
The place to start is using the tech that is available, it helps no one if it is turned off or unserviceable. Getting back to basics and being disciplined in uncontrolled airspace may also help.
On the TCAS front, Garmin's GTS800 is TCAS v1 and in it's cheapest form provides about 12nm of advanced warning. Equipment costs were about $10k excluding labour and paperwork. If you spend more you get better range but for most light machines that is probably sufficient.